Philly shell: How do you use and counter it?

[Combat Squirrel]

First of all, just to avoid confusion: I'm a southpaw.


I was taught a textboox amateur boxing stance, which I use most of the time. However, I like to try stuff out and occasionally switch to a philly shell, which I mostly use in two ways:

1) Against orthodox: Circling CW (toward his back hand) throwing flicking jabs at distance to lure him into recklessly over-extending with a cross, so I can hit him with a counter left over the top.

2) Against southpaw: Throwing jabs to the body.


Countering it: I usually try to pin the low arm by punching on it, then follow with a punch to the head.

1) Against orthodox: Jab to the shoulder (hard) - Cross to the glove (fast) - Jab to the head (hard)

2) Against southpaw: Jab to the head (fast) - Jab to the elbow (hard) - Cross to the head (hard)

 

[Frode Falch]

I never use it against strong kickers. And i tend not to use it against southpaws.

 

[Sinister]

What are you referring to? Let's first make that clear. Philly fighters...Bennie Briscoe, Joe Frazier, Bernard Hopkins all fought with the lead hand low, hidden behind the lead shoulder, and were aggressive (Bernard became defensive with age).

Michigan "Crab" would be the Mayweathers, James Toney. Much more defensive and counter-punch oriented with less hip-movement.

 

[BigPapaShango]

What are you referring to? Let's first make that clear. Philly fighters...Bennie Briscoe, Joe Frazier, Bernard Hopkins all fought with the lead hand low, hidden behind the lead shoulder, and were aggressive (Bernard became defensive with age).

Michigan "Crab" would be the Mayweathers, James Toney. Much more defensive and counter-punch oriented with less hip-movement.

This is really interesting, I always wondered what you would call Toney's style. Where would RJJ feature?

I know he used various different techniques but I always classed him in the Philly shell style.

 

[Sinister]

No, RJJ didn't really have a style. Defense-wise he was mostly improvisation and offense.

 

[shpboris]

What are you referring to? Let's first make that clear. Philly fighters...Bennie Briscoe, Joe Frazier, Bernard Hopkins all fought with the lead hand low, hidden behind the lead shoulder, and were aggressive (Bernard became defensive with age).

Michigan "Crab" would be the Mayweathers, James Toney. Much more defensive and counter-punch oriented with less hip-movement.

Interesting ... I didn't know that Hopkins' fighting style is common with Briscoe's and Frazier's.

Just based on the observation, I thought he had (more-or-less) the same origin as Floyd and Toney. Actually, my grouping (just based on what I see) would be like that [Frazier, Briscoe, Qawi, Griffin(?)] , [Toney, Floyd], [Hopkins, Ward].

 

[Combat Squirrel]

@ Sinister

If I understand you correctly, the basic stance is the same, but what you do from that stance is different.


Anyway, I'm talking about a stance that looks roughly like this: (front hand across the lower body, back hand at the chin)

 

[Sinister]

Interesting ... I didn't know that Hopkins' fighting style is common with Briscoe's and Frazier's.

Just based on the observation, I thought he had (more-or-less) the same origin as Floyd and Toney. Actually, my grouping (just based on what I see) would be like that [Frazier, Briscoe, Qawi, Griffin(?)] , [Toney, Floyd], [Hopkins, Ward].

No, Hopkins was a Bouie Fisher product, that whole Philly scene was largely influenced by Futch, and Hopkins in his younger days was very aggressive. Most of his victories coming by knockout. But the origin is different. The Mayweather's held to a more pure form of the Crab, which was almost entirely counter-punching. Bill Miller and Dale Williams were the predecessors, were likely more influenced by Tommy Ryan's lineage. Montel Griffin was one of the few guys Futched trained who were almost purely counter-punchers, then Foster and Norton were somewhere in-between.

I wouldn't put Hopkins with Toney, or Ward with any of them. Ward is improvising. If you look at say, the fights between Toney/Jones and Hopkins/Jones I you see a bigger difference. Hopkins didn't stand still and try to counter-punch Jones the way Toney did, he tried to crowd him and apply a lot of pressure with deceptive movement and a jab the way the other Philly fighters did. Toney's lack of ability to time Jones led to a lot of leaping in and out, which you see with the Michigan fighters, not so much the Philly guys. If they leap in they stayed in and did their best work. Toney seemd at a loss when right up against Roy, way more comfortable at mid-range. Whereas you hang out inside with Bernard, he can tear you apart.

@ Sinister

If I understand you correctly, the basic stance is the same, but what you do from that stance is different.


Anyway, I'm talking about a stance that looks roughly like this: (front hand across the lower body, back hand at the chin)

Yeah but a stance is just a stance. These two styles are collections of answers to problems a fighter is going to give you when you stand like that. So that begs the question of which set of answers you prefer. Defense primarily, or offense primarily? Because it's different for each. Then, I'm not sure there's any real data on applying either to a Southpaw, yet.

 

[MEGAhorse]

Found this. Again, shows the gap southpaw's face when learning this stuff. Either basic or Pernell Whitaker level shit.

[YT]38RlJ8ZMRjU[/YT]

 

[a guy]

Then, I'm not sure there's any real data on applying either to a Southpaw, yet.

Call me crazy, but that sounds promising :wink:

 

[Sinister]

Found this. Again, shows the gap southpaw's face when learning this stuff. Either basic or Pernell Whitaker level shit.

[YT]38RlJ8ZMRjU[/YT]

Eh, I don't really like what's going on there. The only reason that kid even NEEDS the shoulder there is because to pivot, he places his head over his front foot. If you learn to pivot better than that, the head doesn't float forward. Hook will go right past you. But if I wanna look cool, sure, dip the head forward and bounce the hook off my shoulder...hoping it doesn't bump up and smack me in the temple.

 

[ssullivan80]

Philly fighters...Bennie Briscoe, Joe Frazier, Bernard Hopkins all fought with the lead hand low, hidden behind the lead shoulder, and were aggressive (Bernard became defensive with age).

Good stuff, reminded me of this clip. As you note, the "philly shell" is often referred to as a defensive style..... but at it's roots stylistically it's very aggressive.

TS (to reiterate sins explanation) - turn up the volume and listen too.

"get on top of him", "when he stops and pops you gotta unload"..........

[YT]0th6_u1xA1o[/YT]

Sinister, question..... would you say that the more modern version of the tuck n roll (even the peakaboo) was a bi product of the "philly shell"?

 

[Sinister]

Well, yes. I would consider it a bastardization of sorts. Like, for instance, how Eugene Bryant trained the guy most of you have seen in videos I've posted "Dee" here at our Gym. I don't know where Bryant (whom we called "Honeybear) learned his system, but I'm pretty sure a lot of it was observed, with some improvisation thrown in. So, he didn't directly learn it, but the end result was a guy who fit right in with many of the aspects of the "Philly Shell" motif. But then something interesting happened, once Honeybear got too old, Dee paired with John who was trained by Archie Moore, and everything he did was refined and made more efficient by adding in concepts that were missing. Concepts John learned from being under the tutelage of Moore, such as a more active jab, stepping around the opponent, and the head-movement being off the jab. Archie's "Lock" has a lot in common with that style even though Archie himself liked to counter-punch. This video is from when I was just assisting John, before I trained anyone. Listen to John's first advice:



BTW, the first kid here is an Amateur, Dee was going easy on him, letting him work. When the second guy gets in, you see how he really is.

 

[shpboris]

No, Hopkins was a Bouie Fisher product, that whole Philly scene was largely influenced by Futch, and Hopkins in his younger days was very aggressive. Most of his victories coming by knockout. But the origin is different. The Mayweather's held to a more pure form of the Crab, which was almost entirely counter-punching. Bill Miller and Dale Williams were the predecessors, were likely more influenced by Tommy Ryan's lineage. Montel Griffin was one of the few guys Futched trained who were almost purely counter-punchers, then Foster and Norton were somewhere in-between.

I wouldn't put Hopkins with Toney, or Ward with any of them. Ward is improvising. If you look at say, the fights between Toney/Jones and Hopkins/Jones I you see a bigger difference. Hopkins didn't stand still and try to counter-punch Jones the way Toney did, he tried to crowd him and apply a lot of pressure with deceptive movement and a jab the way the other Philly fighters did. Toney's lack of ability to time Jones led to a lot of leaping in and out, which you see with the Michigan fighters, not so much the Philly guys. If they leap in they stayed in and did their best work. Toney seemd at a loss when right up against Roy, way more comfortable at mid-range. Whereas you hang out inside with Bernard, he can tear you apart.

Hmm ... But Hopkins doesn't fight like Frazier at all, not ? The only thing in common to me is the aggression. Strange that they come from the same school.

To me it looks like that just based on watching their fights:

1.
Toney and Floyd go to the same group. Both like to counter, their cleanest counters are right hand counters. Something like catch the jab, roll the right, counter with own right etc... Their defense in a lot of situation is very similar - slip to the right and bend in waist. The posture with the low lead hand. Clean inside fighting without holding.

Though Floyd looks more well rounded to me - i.e has more ways he can fight. Toney IMO had more tools in the mid range. Pretty much every possible counter one can think of )))

2.
Ward and Hopkins - both fight a lot on the inside with a lot of clinching/holding and hitting. Totally different from all others. Both cover a lot of distance on a single attack. Both are very aggressive and throw a lot of combinations (earlier Hopkins). Can counter well (still prefer to lead) but rarely off rolling the right hands - mostly counters off movement. Though Hopkins does some stuff similar to Floyd/Toney with rolling the right hands. Defensively also like to slip right with bend in waist like Floyd/Toney, but rely more on jab/movement/clinching.

3.
Frazier and Qawi - slow methodical aggression. Don't cover a lot of ground on single attack. Rely more on cutting the ring off in order to make contact. Clear aggressors.
No slipping right with bend in waist at all. More centered posture. More slipping left/right, boobing and weaving. No holding and hitting.

 

[Sinister]

Hopkins is unique among the Philly Fighters mainly in that he disliked getting hit cleanly and thus, wouldn't simply wade in behind small movements in a more frontal position. Perhaps a product of losing his first Pro fight and never wanting to lose again. Perhaps mere ego. But, his approach doesn't make him so unique that he doesn't belong. Georgie Benton was a Philly fighter and a Futch product, and also was very very content to merely make opponents miss. And had trouble finding balance between offense/defense, so much so that he'd engage in each at the wrong moments in fights, and it cost him decisions. Ward is something else entirely, perhaps best classed as a bastardization of things these other guys did. But it's unique to he and Hunter, because Hunter has yet to replicate Ward in any way, where Fisher actually had quite a few very good fighters he built who had similar traits.

I think you're thinking these guys have to fight EXACTLY alike, which isn't what I'm saying. I'm just distinguishing where what they learned came from, and who was more likely to learn what. How they handled themselves in the ring depended on a culmination of that AND who they are as a person. Hopkins does a lot of roll stuff, it just for some reason goes largely unnoticed. EDIT: In this fight (which I've posted at least twice before) you see Hopkins behave more like the classic "Philly Shell" guy, not entirely, but he does it. Because Baptist gave him no other choice:



BTW - I'd burn a small village for a version of this with the cornering by Billy Moore and Bouie Fisher.

 

[shpboris]

I think you're thinking these guys have to fight EXACTLY alike, which isn't what I'm saying. I'm just distinguishing where what they learned came from, and who was more likely to learn what. How they handled themselves in the ring depended on a culmination of that AND who they are as a person.

I see the point ...

Hopkins does a lot of roll stuff, it just for some reason goes largely unnoticed.

Yes ... IMO, not as much as Floyd or Toney, but still quite a lot.


If you forget for a second about their trainers/schools, don't you think Ward and younger Hopkins are quite similar fighters ? I mean, technique wise ...

 

[shpboris]

About Baptist fight - yeah, it is a good one )) Baptist is a very skilled guy himself. If I remember correctly, until some point in Hopkins fight, he did very well defensively as well ...

 

[Sinister]

Not really. Hopkins was never befuddled on the inside as much as I've seen Ward be when an opponent gives him a hard time back. Like with Sakio Bika. He essentially neutralized Ward inside. Also, younger Hopkins was IMO much sharper as a controller of space, without using quite as many tools. I mean, they're of similar temperaments, sure. But Ward IMMEDIATELY goes to dirtying up the pool inside, where Hopkins would skillfully bang a guy out there with positioning. If I had to say they're similar in any way I'd have to belittle Ward and say he's a discount young Hopkins. Hopkins himself was just much better at everything. They're "similar" in that Broner and Mayweather are "similar."

 

[shpboris]

Really ? ))) You don't like Ward judging by comparison with Floyd and Broner ))))
I don't know - may be I miss stuff when I see Hopkins, but Ward looks SUPER skilled IMO. To me even better at some areas ...

 

[shpboris]

Just talking from technical perspective - not comparing Hopkins and Ward as fighters overall ...