People accusing Royce Gracie of fixing fights

[kintana]

He fought Ken which is the best win of his career along with Severn but Ken wasn't allowed to wear wrestling shoes while he could wear the gi and he used it by grabbing his own belt to get a choke.

I do not think Ken lost because of lack of wrestling shoes. According to Ken he thought Royce was a karate guy or something non-grappling. I think Royce just surprised Ken with his grappling. And he got caught.

It was more of a lack of preparation on Ken's side and him underestimating Royce. To be fair probably a lot of people underestimated Royce. And you cannot blame Ken, barely anyone knew about jiu jitsu back then in the US in the early 90s.

 

[Coconutwater]

They were obviously not fixed fights and almost no one says that but they were arranged so Royce would be favoured to win.
He fought hobbyist strikers with no grappling who had no idea how to prepare while Royce had years to prepare.

He fought Ken which is the best win of his career along with Severn but Ken wasn't allowed to wear wrestling shoes while he could wear the gi and he used it by grabbing his own belt to get a choke.

They cherry picked his opponents and don't let Taktarov or Ruas compete when Royce was there or anyone who would be a threat.
Can you imagine if he had fought Tank Abbot or Frye,guys he could not take down and who could bang? He would have got brutalized.

Rorion even challenged Benny the Jet until he found out he had trained grappling with Gene Lebell.
Many things were stacked in their favour then they got out on top when the wrestlers started entering. Even Severn who had 5 days preparation claims he could have hurt Royce badly on the ground but didn't want to when he had total control since he wasn't used to hitting people.
To call it a fair tournament is also ridiculous , so this is the type of 'arranging' that happened.

With Bill Wallace, commentator of UFC 1.

Tank Abbott, a slugger with one punch KO power and former all-American wrestler who started at 9 years old, was rejected by the UFC and finally allowed entrance after Royce left. Someone with sprawl and brawl would have limited Royce’s 11 fight win streak, which isn’t to say BJJ isn’t the most necessary art or that Royce isn’t a decent fighter, but it is true that UFC 1-4 was created to highlight jiu jitsu against singular styles.

 

[TheMaster]

Tank Abbott, a slugger with one punch KO power and former all-American wrestler who started at 9 years old, was rejected by the UFC and finally allowed entrance after Royce left. Someone with sprawl and brawl would have limited Royce’s 11 fight win streak, which isn’t to say BJJ isn’t the most necessary art or that Royce isn’t a decent fighter, but it is true that UFC 1-4 was created to highlight jiu jitsu against singular styles.

Tank Abbot could have legit ass-fucked Royce. Can you imagine the fear when they saw him , the idea of him KOing Royce would've been too much and ending their marketing drive. Also Tank was pushing the street brawler character even though he also had boxing and wrestling so that would have further damaged the Gracie brand the most.

Truth is though, I probably still wouldn't bet on Tank because he likely would've followed Royce to the ground and got tapped. His fight IQ was poor. If he had had discipline to keep it standing then there is basically nothing Royce could have done,and the Gracie myth would have been ended from the get go.

Someone else could have done the same but they didn't, the Gracie did so they deserve the praise.

Moreover in the 90's Judo and Wrestling didn't train dealing with strikes at all and were seen by everyone, practioners included, "just as sports" so I don't think that some judoka or wrestler would have ever tought of setting up something like the UFC to prove their style was the best for no rules unarmed combat, which is something the Gracie's were always obsessed about.
Yes there was Shootfighting in Japan but it was nowhere near as close to real fighting as the early UFC (no strikes to the ground, rope break, no closed fist, worked fights alongside real ones that hurt their legitimaty etc....) and as the other vale tudo formats that imitated it shortly after its success (Vale Tudo Japan, WCC etc....), and it had not a tenth of its impact and influence.

And of course we needed the Gracie infomercial, it was a good business move but it benefitted not only them but the martial arts community as a whole.
Without them, unless someone else decided to step in their place and do the same, which is far from a given, we would not get modern MMA, the evolution and development of martial arts would be far behind and 99,9% of the people would probably still be stuck believing that Judo, Wrestling and "other gay stuff" are not effective in a fight, that size is all that matter or alternatively that a karate/kung fu master can kill you with a flick of their hand and beat up 5 gang member simultaneously.

We didn't need BJJ.
All that has really happened is, more douches do martial arts now without the ingrained respect that Judo teaches, people smoke weed while training and mma combat sports became a thing in America.
Gene Lebell already proved this in the 60's in the US.

Sport BJJ which is the version that has become most widely practiced is also less practical then standard Judo for self defence.

The Gracie's did it as a business venture and it hell of worked. They get their due, they are the top business men of the martial arts world.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Tank Abbot could have legit ass-fucked Royce. Can you imagine the fear when they saw him , the idea of him KOing Royce would've been too much and ending their marketing drive. Also Tank was pushing the street brawler character even though he also had boxing and wrestling so that would have further damaged the Gracie brand the most.

Truth is though, I probably still wouldn't bet on Tank because he likely would've followed Royce to the ground and got tapped. His fight IQ was poor. If he had had discipline to keep it standing then there is basically nothing Royce could have done,and the Gracie myth would have been ended from the get go.




We didn't need BJJ.
All that has really happened is, more douches do martial arts now without the ingrained respect that Judo teaches, people smoke weed while training and mma combat sports became a thing in America.
Gene Lebell already proved this in the 60's in the US.

Sport BJJ which is the version that has become most widely practiced is also less practical then standard Judo for self defence.

The Gracie's did it as a business venture and it hell of worked. They get their due, they are the top business men of the martial arts world.

he pointed out all the lies Bigfoot did in his vid and all you have is, we didn’t need Bjj? Lmfao

 

[Deleted member 449757]

If the fights were fixed Rorion would not have let him be humbled by Double H.

 

[bowened]

I'm going to answer to this question because I definitely have way too much free time on my hands.

This is the list of lies or false statement Wallace did in the video:

-He claimed there were nobody with grappling experience at UFC 1, "they were six strikers and a sumo guy, no grapplers", but that's wrong, Shamrock was a submission wrestler.

-He claimed nobody know how to defend Royce's double leg and that's the only reason he won.
Except Shamrock sprawled on Royce's double leg and put him on his butt, and lost anyway.

Also, why he is not talking about how there were plenty of good grapplers (sambo guys, judo guys and wrestler) in UFC 2 and 4 and Royce won them anyway?
It doesn't make sense to limit his argument to UFC 1 since the following events had the same format, happened in the same period and were really just an extension of the first.

-He claimed Royce choked Shamrock with his belt, which is false, it was a regular RNC like showed in the pictures in this very thread.

-He claimed people other than Royce were not allowed to wear uniforms from their sport, but that's also false, Art Jimmerson wore one boxing glove and in the following events there were plenty of judo and karate guys with their GI.

The only limitations were that if you decided to wear shoes you were not allowed to kick, and that you could not wear elbow pads and shin guards, full stop.
Art Davis explained it in his book "is that legal?".

-Then we have not only a lie, but also a logical contradiction between his own statements:
He told that the Sumo guy was declared defeated by the referee despite being unharmed and able to continue, because "the Gracie's knew he was too big for Royce to defeat him".

Not only the "he could have continued" statement is a lie (Telia Tuli was unable to continue because Gerard's kick shattered his nose and jaw), but it also contradict the premise that the fighters were handipicked because they were easy opponents for Royce.
If they handpicked the opponents, why pick an opponent they knew Royce was unable to beat and that they had to trick out of the tournament by declaring him unable to continue even if he wasn't? What if Telia easily squashed Gordeau and went on to fight Royce? Bill's logic doesn't make any sense.

Moreover Royce submitted Akebono, who was 100 lbs heavier than Tuli and a way better sumoka, Tuli was far from invicible for him.
I find likely they called him exactly because Royce submitting a 400 lbs behemoth would have sold BJJ very well.

Moreover Bill knew all along that Telia was too injured to keep fighting and the stoppage was the right call, as you can see in this old black belt magazine letter where he criticized the brutality of the UFC and he reported in detail the injuries Telia suffered, so he was consciously lying in the youtube video:
https://books.google.it/books?id=E9...iew=1&pg=PA16&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

To me it seem he disliked the Gracie's succes and how they exposed point Karate and traditional martial arts, hurting Bill's renowed status as a badass in the process, so at the time he tried to boycot the UFC by playing the "it's too barbaric, we should not allow it" card.
Now in 2021 the ship has sailed because MMA has become extremely popular and it's totally accepted as a combat sport by the public, so he changed tactic and tried to hurt their legimatacy with this "conspiracy" crap video on youtube.

I've been surprised at things I've heard from Superfoot over the years. He comes across as a bitter relic of a bygone era. Like an old and gray 80's buttrocker complaining that Nirvana destroyed music.

 

[Esile]

All that has really happened is, more douches do martial arts now without the ingrained respect that Judo teaches, people smoke weed while training and mma combat sports became a thing in America.
.

"All that has really happened is mma became a thing in America" Lmao, are you really acting like it's no big deal?

And no, it's not "more douche do martial arts now", more people in general do martial arts, which include but is not limited to douches.
For example I would have never started learning grappling if it wasn't for MMA popularity and watching it work against roided monster with strikes allowed in MMA, and as a small and scrawny kid it helped me immensely to resolve self esteem and bullying issues I had.

Without the Gracie's I probably would have taken Karate and get my ass kicked at the first opportunity.

Gene Lebell already proved this in the 60's in the US.

No he really didn't, are you talking about his match against a boxer in 1963?
It's not really "proving" if nobody cares or remember about it, not to mention just one match is not enough to persuade the average person who can just chalk it up to a fluke, or to the match "having too many rules", or he can think "yes but boxing is only a sport, a lethal karate or kung fu guy would kill someone who tries to hug him"
What the Gracie did was on a whole other level and had a lasting impact.

Sport BJJ which is the version that has become most widely practiced is also less practical then standard Judo for self defence.

If we talk about self defense MMA is 1000X better than Judo or anything else, and MMA exist and is popular as a direct consequece of what the Gracie's did.
Not to mention BJJ gyms who are self defense oriented do exist (and they are usually run by Gracie's affiliates) and they are way better than modern sport Judo (that don't even allow leg grabs anymore for fuck's sake) for this purpose.

By the way it's debatable if modern sport BJJ is really worse than modern Judo for self defense, I think there is no universal answer but it depends more on the invidual.
Stand-up grappling is more dependent on strenght, speed and athletic ability than ground grappling, so for a strong and athletic guy who can easily and quickly throw people onto their head Judo may be better.
If you are for example a small scrawny guy or a woman I think you may be better off spending most of your time refining how to escape if pinned down so you can ran away, how to sweep someone standing above you or how to take their back and choke them out rather than trying to do judo throws on someone much bigger and more athletic than you.

 

[HunterAcosta]

"All that has really happened is mma became a thing in America" Lmao, are you really acting like it's no big deal?

And no, it's not "more douche do martial arts now", more people in general do martial arts, which include but is not limited to douches.
For example I would have never started learning grappling if it wasn't for MMA popularity and watching it work against roided monster with strikes allowed in MMA, and as a small and scrawny kid it helped my immensely to resolve self esteem and bullying issues I had.

Without the Gracie's I probably would have taken Karate and get my ass kicked at the first opportunity.


No he really didn't, are you talking about his match against a boxer in 1963?
It's not really "proving" if nobody cares o remember about it, not to mention just one match is not enough to persuade the average person who can just chalk it up to a fluke, or to the match "having too many rules", or he can think "yes but boxing is only a sport, a lethal karate or kung fu guy would kill someone who tries to hug him"
What the Gracie did was on a whole other level and had a lasting impact.



If we talk about self defense MMA is 1000X better than Judo or anything else, and MMA exist and is popular as a direct consequece of what the Gracie's did.
Not to mention BJJ gyms who are self defense oriented do exist (and they are usually run by Gracie's affiliates) and they are way better than modern sport Judo (that don't even allow leg grabs anymore for fuck's sake) for this purpose.

By the way it's debatable if modern sport BJJ is really worse than modern Judo for self defense, I think there is no universal answer but it depends more on the invidual.
Stand-up grappling is more dependent on strenght, speed and athletic ability than ground grappling, so for a strong and athletic guy who can easily and quickly throw people onto their head Judo may be better.
If you are for example a small scrawny guy or a woman I think you may be better off spending most of your time refining how to escape if pinned down so you can ran away, how to sweep someone standing above you or how to take their back and choke them than trying to do judo throws on someone much bigger and more athletic than you.

This. Ive trained most of my life in various martial arts and i started at 14 in TKD for the goal of learning how to defend myself. Im a brown belt in bjj now with Jeet Kune Do with mma emphasis and boxing. If it could go back to 14 and mma was around? That would have been my go to training method for self defense. My instructor (under Burton Richardson) teaches a self defense oriented form of JKD with no gi grappling with and without strikes and protective gear, wrestling, muay thai and kickboxing sparring with heavy clinch work. I def would have started something like this had it been around when I was a youngster. Not to say that a wrestler, boxer or judoka cant defend themselves on street, but if your goal is to protect yorself you really should be as well rounded as you can.

 

[shunyata]

This. Ive trained most of my life in various martial arts and i started at 14 in TKD for the goal of learning how to defend myself. Im a brown belt in bjj now with Jeet Kune Do with mma emphasis and boxing. If it could go back to 14 and mma was around? That would have been my go to training method for self defense. My instructor (under Burton Richardson) teaches a self defense oriented form of JKD with no gi grappling with and without strikes and protective gear, wrestling, muay thai and kickboxing sparring with heavy clinch work. I def would have started something like this had it been around when I was a youngster. Not to say that a wrestler, boxer or judoka cant defend themselves on street, but if your goal is to protect yorself you really should be as well rounded as you can.

If Bruce were alive he would have loved the mma boom.

JKD got a bit wierd after his passing, but the man himself was a huge proponent of boxing, wrestling, and judo in his book.

 

[nefti]

Jkd especially the inosanto line got really wierd later...

 

[TheMaster]

For example I would have never started learning grappling if it wasn't for MMA popularity and watching it work against roided monster with strikes allowed in MMA, and as a small and scrawny kid it helped me immensely to resolve self esteem and bullying issues I had.

Without the Gracie's I probably would have taken Karate and get my ass kicked at the first opportunity.


other level and had a lasting impact.



If we talk about self defense MMA is 1000X better than Judo or anything else, and MMA exist and is popular as a direct consequece of what the Gracie's did.
Not to mention BJJ gyms who are self defense oriented do exist (and they are usually run by Gracie's affiliates) and they are way better than modern sport Judo (that don't even allow leg grabs anymore for fuck's sake) for this purpose.

By the way it's debatable if modern sport BJJ is really worse than modern Judo for self defense, I think there is no universal answer but it depends more on the invidual.
Stand-up grappling is more dependent on strenght, speed and athletic ability than ground grappling, so for a strong and athletic guy who can easily and quickly throw people onto their head Judo may be better.
If you are for example a small scrawny guy or a woman I think you may be better off spending most of your time refining how to escape if pinned down so you can ran away, how to sweep someone standing above you or how to take their back and choke them out rather than trying to do judo throws on someone much bigger and more athletic than you.

MMA training is not "1000x better than Judo for self defence".
Its better because it has striking training that's about it. Otherwise Judo covers most of the bases

And if you had taken karate you would still have been able to handle yourself against an untrained guy, since you would have got conditioned and developed hard strikes.
The Judo + Karate combination has been popular forever as well and is more than enough for self defence.

Also the idea that for a smaller female it is better to end up on your back and learn to escape than to learn how to throw using leverage or just keep it standing and avoid being taken down and escape is laughable.
She would also practice escape being pinned in Judo.
Thee is no comparison here, Judo is at least twice as good an option for self defence as sport BJJ. Plus with all the info out there on YouTube now upgrading on a few subs is not difficult either.

 

[Esile]

MMA training is not "1000x better than Judo for self defence".
Its better because it has striking training that's about it. Otherwise Judo covers most of the bases

And if you had taken karate you would still have been able to handle yourself against an untrained guy, since you would have got conditioned and developed hard strikes.
The Judo + Karate combination has been popular forever as well and is more than enough for self defence.

Also the idea that for a smaller female it is better to end up on your back and learn to escape than to learn how to throw using leverage or just keep it standing and avoid being taken down and escape is laughable.
She would also practice escape being pinned in Judo.
Thee is no comparison here, Judo is at least twice as good an option for self defence as sport BJJ. Plus with all the info out there on YouTube now upgrading on a few subs is not difficult either.

Are we talking about the same Judo that doesn't allow double and single leg takedowns, doesn't allow you to lock your hands around your opponent's and where it's a viable option to just turtle until the ref break you up? Really?

It's not even remotely comparable to MMA for self defense, and not just because of the lack of strikes (which is still something huge that you can't downplay with "it only lack strikes" like it's no big deal lol).

Most Judo places ground game sucks by the way, and the stand-up is severely handicapped by the extremely limitated rules, you average modern judo guy doesn't even need to lear how to sprawl.

I may have agreed with you before the 2009 leg grab bans, but absolutely not today.

And no by the way, I know myself and my athletic limitations well enough to know that with Karate or other traditional martial arts I would have not be able to handle bigger and more athletic people (aka 90% of the human populaton in my case).

Also the idea that for a smaller female it is better to end up on your back and learn to escape than to learn how to throw using leverage or just keep it standing and avoid being taken down and escape is laughable.
She would also practice escape being pinned in Judo.
Thee is no comparison here, Judo is at least twice as good an option for self defence as sport BJJ. Plus with all the info out there on YouTube now upgrading on a few subs is not difficult either.

It's laughable to believe it would be high percentage for a women who has trained only in a gi, has never learned to deal with strikes and has never grappled with tackles, body lock and leg grabs allowed would be able to keep it standing and throw a larger and more athletic men violently attacking her.

Her ending up on the bottom is the more likely outcome, or even if she throws him it's likely she is reversed on the way down.

And being able to sweep a larger opponent, take his back or stand back up are things that you are going to learn in a much more sopishticated and effective way in BJJ than in Judo, Judo's ground game is lightyears behind.

There are gyms who completely neglect the ground aspect of the fight.
If we are talking about Judo gyms with decent ground game, then there are BJJ gyms with decent stand-up too.

Anyway, what's your point?
That what the Gracie's have done and the rise of MMA didn't change anything, and things would stay the same because "people could have trained Judo+ Karate for self defense and still be able to beat people up"?
Because it would be a very shitty point, how many people trained a Judo + Boxe/Karate combo compared to how many people train MMA today? How many people trained just Karate or Kung Fu or something like that and thought it was enough to be badass compared to how many people know better today? How many people didn't train because they believed martial arts were bullshit and changed their mind thanks to the rise of MMA?

It's undeniable that thanks to MMA popularitity a lot more people than before have the opportunity to recognize what really works and make an informed choice to train in legit and effective arts, instead of wasting their time, money and effort training is some bullshit traditional martial arts because they don't know any better.

It helped the martial arts community a ton.

Plus training a sport with both strikes and grappling simultaneously allowed is a ton better than training a grappling and a striiking sport separately and never sparring with both allowed, which was the only option available before MMA.
For example you could not really practice how to execute a takedown on a striking opponent, how to mix up strikes and takedowns, how to defend yourself from strikes on the ground, how to deliver your own ground and pound effectively etc...if you trained just Judo and Karate separately.

 

[TheMaster]

It's laughable to believe it would be high percentage for a women who has trained only in a gi, has never learned to deal with strikes and has never grappled with tackles, body lock and leg grabs allowed would be able to keep it standing and throw a larger and more athletic men violently attacking her.

Her ending up on the bottom is the more likely outcome, or even if she throws him it's likely she is reversed on the way down.

Her ending up on the bottom is almost a guarantee with sport BJJ. Then who knows what happens after.

You have obviously never trained Judo.
Can't clasp hands? Why would they want to it's not wrestling lol. The gi is not needed for most throws either.
A well practiced judo throw is very efficient and doesn't require as much strength. A small female can throw a larger male who doesn't know what he is doing and at least stop him taking her down and escape.


This is more important than focussing mainly on the desperation struggle on the ground. Judo will give her some skills to escape and get up which is a back up but keep on the feet is the most important area of focus.
Yes if people have time to train everything then thats better but not everyone does.

 

[Esile]

You have obviously never trained Judo.

I didn't but I know and I have grappled with a lot people who trained Judo (females included).

Can't clasp hands? Why would they want to it's not wrestling lol.

Because it's a good way to control the opponent and set-up some takewdowns (never heard of a double under hook clinch?) Because you wanna be prepared on what to do if someone do it to you on the street?
I would argue that the best way to take down someone much larger and more athletic who is trying to punch you is to duck under, slip to ther back, establish the rear clinch and then go for rear takedowns, which is something you can't in Judo rules.
And you glossed over the leg grab ban, it's funny that you sell Judo as "perfect for remain standing in a street fight against someone much stronger and it only lacks strikes" when a modern Judo guy don't even practice how sprawl of a leg tackle attempt.
At least sport BJJ allows double and single legs.

The gi is not needed for most throws either.
.

It's not needed, but it help a lot and you can't expect a woman who has only trained in the GI to suddenly bust out the correct No GI version against a much larger man attacking her in the street.

A well practiced judo throw is very efficient and doesn't require as much strength. A small female can throw a larger male who doesn't know what he is doing and at least stop him taking her d
own and escape.

I know judo throws are efficient and work on larger people, but when I talk about physical inferiotity I don't mean just size and strenght, I was referring to athletic ability as a whole, someone can be small but still good athletic wise.
If you are smaller, weaker, slower and unathletic you are going to have a harder time with Judo throws than with ground fighting.
Stand-up grappling is a lot more depented on innate athletic abilities (which doesn't mean only size and strenght, but speed, reflexes, coordination etc....) than ground grappling, that's undeniable.
It can work on superior athletes if you have better technique, yes, but the gap it can bridge is smaller than ground grappling.

A well practiced judo throw is very efficient and doesn't require as much strength. A small female can throw a larger male who doesn't know what he is doing and at least stop him taking her d
own and escape.

I already saw that video but it was a scrawny man, against someone like him both Judo and Sport BJJ are going to help you just fine, i was talking about a much larger gap in size, strenght and athleticism.
(also to be fair, it looks like she attacked him first, hardly "self-defense")

Yes if people have time to train everything then thats better but not everyone does.

Said by the same guy who stated "we don't need MMA because people can just train both Karate and Judo" lol, at least try to stay consistent.

By the way I don't have much interest in this Sport BJJ vs Judo for self defense discussion, since I find both inadequate for self defense and if that's your objective you should train in either Self Defense BJJ or even better MMA.

The main point is that what the Gracie's did in exposing fake martial arts and popularizing BJJ and MMA has greatly benefitted the martial arts community as a whole and I find absurd to deny it.

 

[TheMaster]

The main point is that what the Gracie's did in exposing fake martial arts and popularizing BJJ and MMA has greatly benefitted the martial arts community as a whole and I find absurd to deny it.

They didn't expose 'fake martial arts' stop drinking the koolaid.
They set up a format to promote themselves.
A guy like Keith Hackney, the classic American Kenpo 'cobra kai' guy had brutal power from his strikes.
This includes palm strikes which can be more useful in self defence than just punches which you practice in mma.

Royce even said he hit so hard that he felt 'the top of his head might split open'.
If Hackney had been given 6 months to a year to work a sprawl and basic submission defence he would've been much more dangerous to Royce and made the fight closer to 50-50.

Royce had years to prepare to fight against guys striking him but the reverse was not true.
It was this imbalance that was the main factor in Royce's favour.

They were wearing a cup as well which is another strike that can be a finisher on the feet and change things.

For most self defence situations, legit American Kempo plus sprawl and learning some basic submissions and defence later just from YouTube is better than doing sport BJJ and trying to add some shadowboxing from YouTube.

 

[TheMaster]

Ken wore shoes in their second match, so the shoes excuse seems pretty silly. He lost because he didn't have shoes in the first match, but had 45 minutes to finish Royce in the second match, with prep time on Royce's fighting style, and couldn't come away with anything but a draw.

He fought for the draw and to survive the guard in the second fight.
After the reset in that fight he showed what would have happened if he had just followed proper fight IQ and kept it standing.

 

[Esile]

They didn't expose 'fake martial arts' stop drinking the koolaid.
They set up a format to promote themselves.
A guy like Keith Hackney, the classic American Kenpo 'cobra kai' guy had brutal power from his strikes.
This includes palm strikes which can be more useful in self defence than just punches which you practice in mma.

Royce even said he hit so hard that he felt 'the top of his head might split open'.

It surely had nothing to do with the fact Hackney was 5'10 200 lbs of pure muscle and tough as nails.
But sure, who need to train in modern MMA?
Small unathletic skinny guys and women can just learn how to make the head of guys twice their size explode with palm strikes training in legit American Kenpo, if they are lucky enough to find one legit american Kenpo school among hundreds of mcdojos, right?

The only thing that broke was Keith Hackney's hand when he punched Yarborough in the back of his head dozens of times in a row by the way, not exactly the best approach for "self defense".

If Hackney had been given 6 months to a year to work a sprawl and basic submission defence he would've been much more dangerous to Royce and made the fight closer to 50-50.

You didn't watch or don't rember the fight, because that's exactly what happened.
Hackney trained speifically in takedown defense in the months leading up to the figth, he sprawled on Royce's takedowns repeatedly and forced him to pull guard in what was not an easy fight.

I know that some traditional martial arts can have some value if the school is legit, but the point is that it's clear that the number of people training in mcdojos decreased and the number of people having access to a legit, well rounded, very effective and pressure tested fighting system increased by a ton thanks to MMA rise and popularity, it's disingenous to claim otherwise, I made lenghy posts analyzing MMA contribute to the general public in detail and you completely glossed over them, I don't want to repeat myself.

To me it seems clear you have some kind of personal hate towards the Gracie's and MMA and are therefore very biased.
(Maybe you started training Judo before UFC was a thing, you loved it and are salty that the Gracie's acted like they invented leverage and ground fighting? I can understand if you are bothered by that by the way)

 

[TheMaster]

Didn't he only get in one punch after the reset before Royce got him to the ground again (it wasn't a takedown by Royce per se, but he got it back to the ground).

And again, imo, the fact that little, skinny ass Royce survived against Shamrock for 45 minutes and Shamrock had to almost exclusively stall the entire time to survive himself, is why the Gracie style of fighting is so superior when compared style by style. The second match is more of an example of this than the first, imo.

Ken could have stood up again easy.
Poor strategy on his part throughout, but he was fighting for the draw again at what was an unfamiliar specialist style.

It surely had nothing to do with the fact Hackney was 5'10 200 lbs of pure muscle and tough as nails.
But sure, who need to train in modern MMA?
Small unathletic skinny guys and women can just learn how to make the head of guys twice their size explode with palm strikes training in legit American Kenpo, if they are lucky enough to find one legit american Kenpo school among hundreds of mcdojos, right?

The only thing that broke was Keith Hackney's hand when he punched Yarborough in the back of his head dozens of times in a row by the way, not exactly the best approach for "self defense".




You didn't watch or don't rember the fight, because that's exactly what happened.
Hackney trained speifically in takedown defense in the months leading up to the figth, he sprawled on Royce's takedowns repeatedly and forced him to pull guard in what was not an easy fight.

I know that some traditional martial arts can have some value if the school is legit, but the point is that it's clear that the number of people training in mcdojos decreased and the number of people having access to a legit, well rounded, very effective and pressure tested fighting system increased by a ton thanks to MMA rise and popularity, it's disingenous to claim otherwise, I made lenghy posts analyzing MMA contribute to the general public in detail and you completely glossed over them, I don't want to repeat myself.

Of course Hackney did well, and further shows you talking crap saying that it was 'fake martial arts'. The point of martial arts is also to increase your physical attributes.

You get stronger from BJJ training and more flexible and better cardio also.

Any form of popular mma would have led to a resurgence in realistic training. The Gracie's pioneered this format in the US but it didn't need to be them and the result would have been still more people doing kickboxing and legit kempo for example Intead of mcdojo stuff.

All martial arts start of legit and become watered down over time with mcdojos for money making and this is happening with sport bjj also.

 

[Esile]

Ken could have stood up again easy.
Poor strategy on his part throughout, but he was fighting for the draw again at what was an unfamiliar specialist style.



Of course Hackney did well, and further shows you talking crap saying that it was 'fake martial arts'. The point of martial arts is also to increase your physical attributes.

You get stronger from BJJ training and more flexible and better cardio also.

By fake martial arts I meant all the Mcdojos running around where they teach unrealistic technique and/or they don't do any sparring, for every single legit Kung fu, Aikido, Wing Chun, Ninjitsu, Karate etc...school there are dozens of mcdojos and that was more true before the UFC era.
And I was also referring to fighters of some made up "street lethal" style and other crap that were completely embarrased in the early ufc.

I never talked about Keith Hackney specifically, who was indeed a tough and pretty legit guy, you brought him up.

Any form of popular mma would have led to a resurgence in realistic training. The Gracie's pioneered this format in the US but it didn't need to be them and the result would have been still more people doing kickboxing and legit kempo for example Intead of mcdojo stuff.

It didn't need to be them?
Probably, yet they are the ones who did it, it's far from a given that if they didn't someone else would have taken their place, organized televised No Holds Barred tournaments and proved grappling effectiveness against bigger, stronger and more athletic people to the world so convincingly.