Pat O'Keefe: Essential kickboxing!

[Ogata]

I remember reading his book 7 years ago which was in 2007! (damn how times fly!) and I really enjoyed it and I find him to be a very pragmatic and level headed individual.

Enjoy both defensive and offensive videos:

 

[BadR89]

Hey, thanks for sharing the vids. I think they are useful!

 

[Ogata]

Hey, thanks for sharing the vids. I think they are useful!

No worries man!

Pat has great knowledge about how striking works. In his book he discusses many topics such as structural sparring, how to spar someone less skill or more skills then you as well as taking a pragmetic approach on sparring.

He also talks about different mentality and different guards you can adapt to pka kickboxing and the history of it.

He himself has fought in 28 kickboxing matches and the notable opponent was Nigel Benn who is a well accomplished boxer.

 

[Perfect form]

I see rock'em sock'em.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I remember reading his book 7 years ago which was in 2007! (damn how times fly!) and I really enjoyed it and I find him to be a very pragmatic and level headed individual.

Enjoy both defensive and offensive videos:

Never mind his kickboxing skills. I want the skills of his assistant, from 13:10 to 13:40 his assistant just vanishes into thin air.

 

[Ogata]

Never mind his kickboxing skills. I want the skills of his assistant, from 13:10 to 13:40 his assistant just vanishes into thin air.

Pat is secretly Quan Chi and the assistant is a shadow minion.

 

[StanClarker]

Pat is secretly Quan Chi and the assistant is a shadow minion.

I'm only 7 minutes in or so. What a treasure. Advanced obviously.

I'm not one to compare rules looking @ striking styles. These opening guard adaptations, however, work in part becasue of boxing glove size, and / target restrictions around the head? Given that, the approach looks bulletproof until you really examine it finely. On the highest order of difficulty compared to that standard, closed guard I've been learning.

Bravo.

 

[Ogata]

I'm only 7 minutes in or so. What a treasure. Advanced obviously.

I'm not one to compare rules looking @ striking styles. These opening guard adaptations, however, work in part becasue of boxing glove size, and / target restrictions around the head? Given that, the approach looks bulletproof until you really examine it finely. On the highest order of difficulty compared to that standard, closed guard I've been learning.

Bravo.

This is the old school PKA/full contact karate style and they use lots of boxing tactics. Of course with rise of MMA, we also saw the rise of Muay Thai and leg kicks and for that reason the western kickboxing style went out of style. But I love and appreciate the move set and I resent the notion of western kickboxing/Karate Kickboxing being a Waterdown Muay Thai.

Pat fought Nigel Benn in kickboxing, to his credit he did survive an onslaught from Nigel for sometime:

 

[StanClarker]

Codebreaker's recent session.

One of the boxing basics I'v posted about is footwork. I continue to believe maintaining good footwork and the corresponding balanced boxing stance is much, much harder than I'm getting from the use of boxing I see (aside from top professional boxing fighters & those great amateurs I'm sure are out there).
According to the footwork explanations, I can now see the elements of good footwork in the pro sparring partner.

The second thing I see however, is how he is taken out of his footwork a number of times. REcovers nicely though.

I said Codebreaker put up a great training vid, and I'll say so again.

 

[StanClarker]

This is the old school PKA/full contact karate style and they use lots of boxing tactics.

You're getting way ahead me so if I get lost, please understand. But tnx for the flavor.

Of course with rise of MMA, we also saw the rise of Muay Thai and leg kicks and for that reason the western kickboxing style went out of style.

Ok, but was that in large part because the use of low kicks came into play? I'll admit Muay Thai is powerful, but there's too much worship of Muay Thai as somehow cornering kicking. MMA typically kicks poorly to boot.

But I love and appreciate the move set and I resent the notion of western kickboxing/Karate Kickboxing being a Waterdown Muay Thai.

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We are on the same wavelength. The rush for contact over conquering the finer points of the art. Really undermined the practice of Kyokushin karate, IMO.

Pat fought Nigel Benn in kickboxing, to his credit he did survive an onslaught from Nigel for sometime:

I'm not a boxing fighter follower, so allow for my ignorance. Sounds like a match of experts. I'm looking @ Freddie Roach. over-rated as a boxer (IMO); so, so excellent at spelling out how to box. What I see starting out.

Vids like this are V-log textbooks.

 

[StanClarker]

Pat fought Nigel Benn in kickboxing, to his credit he did survive an onslaught from Nigel for sometime:

Took a quick look at the vid. An initial concern of Pat's atypical guard is in theory this might look or be held as great; in practice kinda asking for it.

Kinda reliance on the guard too much, and less on footwork, head & body movement, even countering. And so works out fine against tough sparring partner; not so against a hell bent destroyer.

This is why I'm tuning into boxing basics, including a simple one by Freddie Roach. He starts with a very standard approach (IMO) which is pure, basic boxing science. Defense is multi-faced, yet balanced.

 

[Ogata]

You're getting way ahead me so if I get lost, please understand. But tnx for the flavor.



Ok, but was that in large part because the use of low kicks came into play? I'll admit Muay Thai is powerful, but there's too much worship of Muay Thai as somehow cornering kicking. MMA typically kicks poorly to boot.


Aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We are on the same wavelength. The rush for contact over conquering the finer points of the art. Really undermined the practice of Kyokushin karate, IMO.


I'm not a boxing fighter follower, so allow for my ignorance. Sounds like a match of experts. I'm looking @ Freddie Roach. over-rated as a boxer (IMO); so, so excellent at spelling out how to box. What I see starting out.

Vids like this are V-log textbooks.

Karate kickboxing started because karate point fighters were frustrated with point fighting and so they started fighting in the ring. They gassed out after a minute and saw that boxers don't have that problem. So they decided to start cross training boxing and later on we saw western kickboxers mix it up with Thai boxers and in this case we saw people cross train in both arts.

Afterwards MMA came in and because of takedowns and grappling, people felt that karate style kickboxing is no good because you get taken down if you go for a fancy kick. So for a while the focus was on Knees, Elbows and low kicks.

 

[StanClarker]

Karate kickboxing started because karate point fighters were frustrated with point fighting and so they started fighting in the ring.

This is what happens when one rushes to competition. Which of course a lot of martial artists do. Nothing IMO is more guilty than MMA.

They gassed out after a minute and saw that boxers don't have that problem. So they decided to start cross training boxing and later on we saw western kickboxers mix it up with Thai boxers and in this case we saw people cross train in both arts.

As above. My initial look / posts on boxing bear this out, the kind of standard conditioning. Karate is after a different kind. Moreover, and I think we all agree, the karate hobbyist compared to the boxing hobbyist is a very weak sauce. The karate hobbyist is also going to be a broader group since isn't as demanding physically as boxing. All else being equal. So a trade off of conditioning for greater participation.

Conditioning, not amassing techniques from all over the place is the solution, what I would look for. Again, boxing reinforces this from the get go, one of it's major pluses.

Afterwards MMA came in and because of takedowns and grappling, people felt that karate style kickboxing is no good because you get taken down if you go for a fancy kick. So for a while the focus was on Knees, Elbows and low kicks.

Strikers in MMA get taken down or otherwise nailed because they suck (pardon the expression). I can put up a video then several more attesting to this right now. Not the thread.

MMA's reputation is what it is because of the commercial machine behind it. Always has been, always will. Find me a mainstream MMA striking coach who's fit to stand in the same room as your man here. John Kavanagh's striking coach, Jim Roddy? Mike 'Champion Factory' Winkeljohn? Justin Bucholz?

I think legit boxing talent tools MMA striking, all else being equal. All they need to do is learn to kick. On a simple plane.

Why? Boxing is a SCIENCE.

 

[ThufirHawat]

I think legit boxing talent tools MMA striking, all else being equal. All they need to do is learn to kick. On a simple plane.

Why? Boxing is a SCIENCE.

Except that they also need to be ready to wrestle from the same stance as well as defending other attacks not found in boxing, and have smaller gloves. You think that might not require making some additional changes in, say, their posture ?

 

[StanClarker]

Except that they also need to be ready to wrestle from the same stance as well as defending other attacks not found in boxing, and have smaller gloves. You think that might not require making some additional changes in, say, their posture ?

Sure. But there's also various thinking about boxing posture, stances, etc., so much to glean.

I'm trying to focus on the boxing end @ TSF. My judo which is coming along quite nicely, is providing input on the grappling. And one of the things that falls out of judo throws is just the point you made. MMA and boxers in action often stink in terms of throw defense. MMA really stinks. Boxers start out smart. Some very smart.

Just look at Pat about the 10 minute mark. Now there's a boxer who's on balance completely, very solid. In the fight vid, however, he's reeling from trying to maintain his special guard and it's not working. The whole point of looking so closely at basics is that you don't want to be at the place where you sparring and it all falls apart. MMA in spades.

I'll post that Freddie Roach video next.

 

[StanClarker]

Except that they also need to be ready to wrestle from the same stance as well as defending other attacks not found in boxing, and have smaller gloves. You think that might not require making some additional changes in, say, their posture ?

Another thing is that MMA pretends like it's the ultimate acid test. Someone posted that. For practical purposes I think we (me) can agree. Yet that perspective is really a spectator view. Like people on forums.

I'm in judo, the first set of throws. And it very quickly became apparent to me how throws could work against a striker. As I said, the instructors even demo's this with the version of Seoi Nage.

Yet MMA rants about how until the UFC, people taking a certain art couldn't handle another art in which they had no direct experience in. Pure bunk. The UFC overall brought nothing new to marital arts. NOTHING. With the exception in a way of the Gracie's and their BJJ. The latter, however, was an evolution of Judo. The mother art was Judo. So while the Gracie's evolved a 'new' art in practice, in principle, they just extended what the Japanese had evolved in the late 1800's (Judo); from hundreds of years of indigenous JJ.

The base reason MMA competitors stink is that they forgot their roots. Which is a great lesson of theGracie's themselves, they did not forget where their art came from.

 

[StanClarker]

I love this video.
Freddie Roach teaching boxing basics - Manny Pacquiao's trainer talks footwork, punching, padwork
1,181,650 views
•May 6, 2014


G P
6.07K subscribers

He's talks just like a sport competitor in fighting, all about being champion. Didn't have it. But he took that experience & dedication and put together a training style which a lot of people benefited from.

Make of a good trainer, IMO, is explains everything simply yet precisely, and in a concise way. Listen to MMA trainers, they talk on, and on, and on, and on, and on... about this, about that, about this, about that, about all kinds of unrelated topics all over the place yet can't get beyond some generalized statement which really doesn't educate, doesn't tell you anything meaningful.

When done with a session with Freddie Roach, you know exactly what you need to do. Then when you come back, it gets clearer, and clearer. Your knowledge gets stronger.

Disclaimer in that right know I'm the spectator.... Having said that, I'm feeling more & more confident about going to the boxing gym and not being lost, not knowing anything about anything. Not feeling I'm wasting my time now, anytime I work pads (still don't like them).

 

[SandisLL]

Another thing is that MMA pretends like it's the ultimate acid test.

MMA is set of rules and doesn't have duty to pretend anything to anyone.

Like people on forums.

U think there ppl are like mainstream in UFC discussion subsection?

The UFC overall brought nothing new to marital arts.

They should not bring anything and have no duties other than attract wievership and pay purses.
With this they did pretty well.

The base reason MMA competitors stink is that they forgot their roots.

U maybe know roots of boxing and wrestling too?

 

[StanClarker]

MMA is set of rules and doesn't have duty to pretend anything to anyone.


U think there ppl are like mainstream in UFC discussion subsection?


They should not bring anything and have no duties other than attract wievership and pay purses.
With this they did pretty well.


U maybe know roots of boxing and wrestling too?

Largely agreed. 'Cept for one area. Don't have sherdog press badge 2 act dumb like u & be inn.

 

[SandisLL]

U maybe didn't get that there aren't subsection just for MMA fans....