Passing Knee Shield Half Guard, AKA "Z-Guard"

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by FuneralPyre, Aug 28, 2010.

  1. FuneralPyre

    FuneralPyre Purple Belt

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    What are some good passes against this type of guard? Youtube clips would be great. Also, are there any instructional DVDs that devote a section to passing this guard?

    I need different passes depending on how my opponent does the position. Sometimes the guy will put his top foot on my upper thigh and keep his shin perpendicular to the ground. In that situation, it's hard to force his legs together. At other times, his leg will be more diagonal across my body. When it's diagonal it's easier to smash his legs together.
     
  2. MaiLeeGoodFck**

    MaiLeeGoodFck** White Belt

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    push the knee down that is on you and take ur leg out and pass its not too hard
     
  3. FuneralPyre

    FuneralPyre Purple Belt

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    Uh, thanks. Your reply is fairly comprehensive but I'm still interested in other perspectives.

    BTW, it can be virtually impossible to push the knee down if he has his shin perpendicular to the ground.
     
  4. DSGhST07

    DSGhST07 Blue Belt

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    Squeeze the lemon?
     
  5. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Break his grip on your collar, take a step back and stand up to pass, that's what I always do against this guard. It's kind of a dead end if you're passing on the knees because it's a really strong guard, but if you just stand up he will have to switch to some kind of open guard and you can go for a bullfighter pass or whatever.
     
  6. FuneralPyre

    FuneralPyre Purple Belt

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    Do you do that no matter what? Even if you think you can smash the legs together?
     
  7. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    If he lets his leg get too low on my chest I smash it down with my shoulder, thread my forearm between his legs to trap the bottom leg, grip the sleeve of his bottom arm and stretch it out and away from his body, sprawl out and walk around to pass.

    But a guy who is good with this type of half-guard will keep his knee high on your chest so you can't do this.
     
  8. TalkShowOnMute

    TalkShowOnMute dancingonthecorpsesashes

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    Romulo can show you a nice way if you like.... :)

     
  9. FuneralPyre

    FuneralPyre Purple Belt

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    Cool, thanks, TalkShow.

    Do you have one for when you just can't put his legs together?
     
  10. TalkShowOnMute

    TalkShowOnMute dancingonthecorpsesashes

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    How do you mean? As you will notice in the clip from Romulo the legs are separate but he uses his body weight to smash the legs down, forcing them together with his grips and weight.

    You can actually still work this pass without forcing the legs together just using the grip Romulo shows at :18 while sprawling, but you have to be careful of them turning it into a bicep slicer (if allowed in the situation).
     
  11. FuneralPyre

    FuneralPyre Purple Belt

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    Right, but I've found that sometimes the guy has his top leg so that the shin is perpendicular to the ground and his foot is high on your hip. That makes it really hard to get your body on top of his leg so that you can sprawl on it.

    I wonder if you can push the leg the other way if he has it like I just described. For example, if he has the left leg on top, you push his top leg to the ground on your right using your right arm, go for an underhook with your left arm, then try to knee slide (you're passing towards your right). Another idea would be to push his left leg to your right a bit with your right arm and try to turn into him and start working the basic half guard pass that involves facing towards his legs.
     
  12. TalkShowOnMute

    TalkShowOnMute dancingonthecorpsesashes

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    In theory that should work, the only way to know is to have someone put you in LDHG/Z-guard....and continually escape it and try new things.

    What we have to remember is that a half guard that prevents moving forward with one knee and a leg curl prevents moving backwards. This means that moving forward we are met with a rigid block (the knee) but moving backwards against a hamstring curl is much easier, especially if they are floating their blocking leg up high in a scissor sweep-esque fashion, because they are compromising the connection of their ankles. A knee-cut, as you mentioned, would work wonders in this situation I would guess.
     
  13. FuneralPyre

    FuneralPyre Purple Belt

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    This pass looks like it would work well when he has the leg straight and the knee against your shoulder preventing you from crushing his legs together: YouTube - Passaggio Di Guardia Aperta - "Cyborg" Abreu

    He's showing it against a generic open guard, but it seems perfect for that situation.
     
  14. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

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    If the guy is being sloppy, you can grab put your forearm under his top ankle and grab the pants around his ass. This should lock his top leg into position.

    Also useful to circle in towards his to keep him off his side as much as possible.
     
  15. Bruce Calavera

    Bruce Calavera Purple Belt

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    I was doing this to pass this guard as well as long distance half guard for a couple months until I heard Ryan Hall say he thought it was a terrible way to pass the guard on one of the triangle DVDs. I'm not sure why he thought it was terrible but it got me thinking. Now I just stand and pass. Anyone have any thoughts on why he might think it's terrible?
     
  16. Ergo

    Ergo Orange Belt

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    Z-Guard is tough to pass on the knees - it can be done, but typically I find it much, much easier to pass standing.

    I play this guard, and I'll tell you its extremely rare for someone to pass it on the knees.

    He may think its terrible because its extremely easy to attack that threaded arm if you have a strong leg and you can keep it from being smashed all the way down. If I cup the elbow of the threaded arm, its a quick and easy rotation to attack with an omoplata. Only roadblock to finishing is freeing the bottom leg, but I usually don't have much problem getting it out and sitting up for the sweep/finish.
     
  17. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    I was about to suggest this exact pass. Half guard with the foot on the hip and the knee pointing to the sky (aka. 93 guard) is a very different animal from the Z-guard with a shallow knee shield and ankles crossed. Once you're dealing with a vertical knee shield, collapsing the legs together for the leg hug pass Barral shows (which I love) becomes very difficult, but the over/under pass is available. Make sure to cross your head immediately and keep it glued to his far hip, though - otherwise you're susceptible to a very sneaky and powerful arm drag counter.
     
  18. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Well I just said myself that a guy who is good at knee shield half guard won't let you do that pass. I don't see why it's "terrible" compared to any other technique. I can't really imagine someone actually getting an omoplata from there, and stretching his bottom arm out against the mat prevents him from turtling or cross-collar choking you. But it is very difficult to get that top leg smashed down, and if you don't he has a sweep and/or a bicep slicer as TalkShowOnMute pointed out.

    Maybe Ryan just thinks that it's not the path of least resistance to pass this guard. I would agree with that. I think it's much better to take a step back and go for a standing pass. But I'm the type of guy that usually passes standing anyway.
     
  19. mtruitt76

    mtruitt76 Purple Belt

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    There are a couple of passes that can work, but none are easy.

    Threading the leg and smashing the top leg is effective, but there are some dangers and precautions you must take. First don't commit you are too deep on the thread until you have good solid pressure on the top knee and control of their upper body via a sleeve grip or collar grip. If you thread the arm through too early or without good pressure on the top leg, then you are setting yourself up for a leg lasso control and strong sweep options by your opponent. Also if you don't have a good sleeve or collar grip your opponent can simply turn to a Pe Da Pano style cross guard.

    In completing the pass be sure to get a strong heavy sprawl with constant pressure on the top leg and a firm control of their upper body via the sleeve or collar grip. You can complete the pass by "walking" forward or by hopping to the back side once you break the lock on your leg.

    Another option is to get to a more traditional half guard by beating the shield. This is more of a feel move which will take a lot if timing and practice, but is an essential tool in dealing with the z guard imo. I don't know if I can give a good description of the mechanics but I will try to describe it from the perspective of the bottom guy being on their right side with your right leg trapped. With your left hand get a strong collar grip as deep as possible. Base out with your left leg fully extended. Use you right hip to apply down and forward pressure to your opponents top leg and control their top leg at the ankle with your right hand.

    From this position push their top leg down and back with your right hand, pull their upper body towards you with your left hand, and drive and shift your hips. If your timing is good you should land on your left hip past their knee shield. Their reaction will determine what you do next, but this can get you past the knee shield.
     
  20. ozyabbas

    ozyabbas Purple Belt

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    Terere told me to do this. His set up was to use your shoulder to collapse the knees together (If that actually worked then just do the pass as Romollo shows), when the person readjusts his knee to become sort of vertical again. Thats the point at which you pin the gi around his ankle to the trousers/pants around his arse.

    From there he would use the other arm to pin your opponents other leg (the hooking leg) to the floor by grabbing the gi pant/trouser around under the knee. He would then sprawl a little to free your leg and then walk round. When he has a solid enough position he would take the hand that was pinning the bottom leg to the floor and bring it to their head to get head control.
     

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