Pac vs. Bradley - Fun with Angles (Updated w/ part 2)

I understand what you're saying I think you don't understand what I was saying. In other words I feel like when you're foot is on the outside there's more right things that can go for you then wrong (assuming your opponent doesn't know how to properly take the inside angle) compared to having your foot on the inside which will put yourself in a position which you're more vulnerable IF you don't have right idea in mind which is what I'm asking. What is a must to do when having the foot on the inside?

Because if what you're saying is this, doesn't matter where your foot is just box then there would be no article on this inside and outside angle. There has to be a right and wrong way.

Don't quote me on this but I can bet there is more knockdowns when the opponent has stepped to the outside compared to in. That being said I'm trying to find the nuances to make taking the inside more successful.

You need to pivot. Turn yourself so that you are facing the center of his body, hands at the ready.

Keep in mind, though, that the weak angle, as I've termed it, is a vulnerable position for both you and your opponent. Yes, he can step to the outside of your foot to land his cross, but in doing so he straight up gives you the opening for the jab, which should be much quicker than his rear hand. You'll confuse the hell out of him if you let him step past your foot only to immediately stick him in the face or chest with your jab.

Then you pivot fully to the inside and let go with the right hand or a left hook into the middle of his face.

Edit: a guy, which post are you referring to? My page count is probably different from yours.
 
One of the best applications for an inside angle is immediately after you slip outside the rear hand. If the opponent takes a big, telegraphed step outside, you slip to your right (if you're the orthodox guy) or left (if you're the southpaw), then pivot inside as you throw your own rear hand counter. Even if it doesn't land, you'll now be in position to follow up with more punches.

This is one of my favorite examples to illustrate the concept, because it's so exaggerated and obvious.

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Buchinger takes a huge step outside that McGregor sees coming a mile away, so he's easily able to slip. As he throws the left straight counter, notice that he subtly pivots so that he's at an extreme angle by the time the punch lands. If Buchinger didn't go down, McGregor could have thrown another 2 or 3 punches at least before even having to worry about a counter.
 
Nice article by the way Connor. It's good to see both angles being discussed. I really love the Ward vs Dawson fight for illustrating both. Dawson had no idea what to do with his lead foot by the time Ward was done with him. And thank you for highlighting the importance of the jab in open stance engagements. Neglecting it just because the lead arm is a little harder to bypass definitely puts you a step behind of an opponent who knows how to work their lead arm. That's another thing I really liked about Ward vs Dawson. Ward was landing his jab, left hook and even lead uppercut. When you can be that versatile with your lead hand and with your angles, the rear hand is gonna find a home as well.

Definitely a refreshing article. It's nice to not have southpaw vs orthodox fights watered down to just pawing with the lead arm, stepping outside and landing the big rear straight.
 
The whole "move away from their power hand" mantra is so overplayed. I am a southpaw and whenever I fight a orthodox fighter I always move towards their power hand, I find a lot of success doing it and I find it's easier for me to slip their rear hand and counter. It's just a person preference and I don't believe no matter what anyone tells me that I should always go away from their cross, I much prefer to challenge it.
 
Are they actually the best boxers who happen to be southpaw or are they the best boxers because they are southpaw and that throws guys off...

I wish it were just that they were southpaws! One is the head coach and the other is a guy who came from Amateur boxing and has been fucking guys up ever since.

I'd probably feel more confident fighting an average southpaw than I would fighting an average orthodox fighter at this stage though. We go through a lot of time dissecting Left vs Right fighting, however I don't recall this being brought up, so once again thanks TS!
 
Anthony was one of the better inside-angle taking Southpaws out of this Gym:



He catches Arni nice in the first couple of second.



Nice session! It looks like Arni was so occupied by taking the outside angle at first, that Anthony let him take it and quickly came at the inside angle while Arni was adjusting. At 0:25 it looks to me like Arni took a bit too big of a step to the outside and squared up while taking it, and Anthony surprised him and hit him with 1-2 while Arni was transitioning.
 
After reading this I can tell where it is more effective to throw the jab and cross in comparison to the angles but what abouta strong lead hook? What do you guys think in terms of foot position in an open stance to put an effective hook on the opponent?
 
After reading this I can tell where it is more effective to throw the jab and cross in comparison to the angles but what abouta strong lead hook? What do you guys think in terms of foot position in an open stance to put an effective hook on the opponent?

well it should be more of a mental que as to generally where u would want to move ur feet, when this becomes trained into ur experience, u willl automatically move where its best with ur feet (ususally). for me, front uppercut which i use a lot to set up my straight left can be thrown as i step out, or from isnide angle, or when both or feet are about equal. the hook theres many variations.

if ure trying to troll with leaning forwards then pulling back witha hook, u can do fine from either inside or outside, if u will jump into the guy with a front hook imo outside position.

one thing thats cool, as a southpaw, i step to my left while throwing a right hook, then step to my right while throwing a left straight. can be a cheap knock down combination espeically if u see his tendencies and caught him as he moves towards ur hand
 
I was rewatching Lara-Angulo fight and noticed that Lara was using the inside angle as Discipulus was describing. Angulo was chasing that outside angle as Lara was backing up, but Lara sharply took an inside angle and threw left hand.

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angulo is such a fucking ugly fighter. a real displeasure to watch. hits like a truck though
 
I was rewatching Lara-Angulo fight and noticed that Lara was using the inside angle as Discipulus was describing. Angulo was chasing that outside angle as Lara was backing up, but Lara sharply took an inside angle and threw left hand.

It's just too bad his internal rotation and general positioning are poor, or that left even in that gif would have floored Angulo, whose footwork and balance is poor.
 
Just in case you guys wanted to see some more in-fight examples of these angles, the second part of this post went up on BE today. There's a few GIFs from the Pacquiao-Bradley fight--both of them spent this whole fight trying to out-angle one another, so there was plenty of good stuff to draw from.

USING THE WEAK ANGLE

In part 1, I spoke about the most basic open stance maneuver, which is for one fighter to place his lead foot to the outside of his opponent's in an attempt to line up his cross or hook. While there is more to southpaw vs. orthodox fighting than simply stepping past the opponent's lead foot, there is a reason this logic is so heavily promoted--it works.

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Here, Bradley draws Pacquiao's straight left with a double jab. His jab pulls his head back over his right leg, off the center line, and Pac's left whizzes right past his ear. Though it doesn't actually land, at this point the purpose of Bradley's jab becomes clear. First of all, by drawing Manny's cross he has caused his opponent to plant his feet, making himself a stationary target. Secondly, Bradley's jab disguises the movement of his left foot, which steps far to the outside of Pacquiao's right foot, lining up Bradley's right shoulder with Pacquiao's head.

The purpose of this "weak" angle (check this diagram for a visual of the angle I mean) is really to shorten the distance between Bradley's right hand and Pacquiao's chin. By not only stepping forward but also putting his right shoulder right in front of Pac's face, Bradley is able to throw a shorter, more direct punch.

The important thing here is the set-up. Without a set-up Bradley would be placing himself at risk by stepping off the center line, because he actually ends up giving his own center line to Pacquiao. By jabbing his way in, Bradley is able to change position without Pacquiao noticing, allowing him to take advantage of his angle without being punished.


THE INSIDE ANGLE

So what happens when the opponent catches on and takes advantage of that open center line? Throughout this fight, both Bradley and Pacquiao took the inside angle, usually as a quick and subtle counter to the opponent's off-center step (diagram of counter inside angle here).

bradley_counter_right_2_medium.gif


In this instance, Pacquiao steps off the center line to land his straight left, and Bradley hits him with a beautiful cross counter. In the first GIF above, Bradley took a very deep step to close the distance between his target and his right hand, while in this example Pac takes only a small step, doing the typical Manny Pacquiao thing and closing much of the gap by leaning with his upper body instead of moving into range with his feet. This, in part, is what allows Bradley to land such a crisp, short counter punch.

This one's fast, so let's take a closer look with some stills.

Continues on Bloody Elbow...
 
Thank you very much for this great article! It taught me quite a bit about angles, and the diagrams make it easier to understand.
 
Nice job Conner. It was a great fight. Too bad Tim got hurt, but it was excellent nonetheless. MP still has it, so quick, so fast.

Also nice Gifs guy and delmata

Keep in mind, though, that the weak angle, as I've termed it, is a vulnerable position for both you and your opponent. Yes, he can step to the outside of your foot to land his cross, but in doing so he straight up gives you the opening for the jab, which should be much quicker than his rear hand.

yes, that is why you need to always do so safely and intelligently. and if you have the initiative to move their in the first place, you should be the one in control. just like when you move left to set up your right hand, you also put yourself in the way of the opponents right hand.(orth vs. orth) but you took the first step and should be in control. you broke the centerline you worked to hold to line up your right hand.

It looked like Manny wanted an even more dominate angle like you spoke of when he stepped and went to pivot. Bradley stepped his foot to the left and caught him, countered mannys footwork. that was a great punch and use of footwork by Tim.

Those more dominate angle are always great, but are much harder to get. the fraction of a second more it takes to do that pivot can be all the opponent needs to protect himself or even counter you.

He's not a good writer. Not bad, not stupid, actually pretty talented, but his structure, verbosity and prose are off.

You don't write like you're up your own ass. Very objective and to the point. How it should be. The praise is no problem at all, dude, thanks for the work you put in.


I think you may be referring to his odd English sense of humor and phrases, which can be annoying, but he is a solid writer imo.
Anthony was one of the better inside-angle taking Southpaws out of this Gym:

very good. love seeing some good sparring like that

I've got something that discusses angles as well when I analyzed Manny Pacquiao's style:

http://a-neutral-corner.blogspot.ca/2014/03/my-two-cents-part-one-meditations-on.html

Scroll down to the diagram and description.

Nice job, will have to check out the Mayweather/Maidana breakdowns.

angulo is such a fucking ugly fighter. a real displeasure to watch. hits like a truck though
Thank You


It's just too bad his internal rotation and general positioning are poor, or that left even in that gif would have floored Angulo, whose footwork and balance is poor.

Internal rotation refers to him turning into himself. Are you saying he is bad at doing that? I have an idea of what internal/external rotation are. but the way you phrase it confuses me. It is an action, a movement. how do you spot what your saying.
and what needs to be done for him to correct it.
 
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No, look at his left leg when he throws his left hand. He has a hard time turning his left hip so that his left knee points to his right.
 
He's not a good writer. Not bad, not stupid, actually pretty talented, but his structure, verbosity and prose are off.

You don't write like you're up your own ass. Very objective and to the point. How it should be. The praise is no problem at all, dude, thanks for the work you put in.

Old post... but this seriously has me reconsidering my writing technique. I am one pompous asshole.
 
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