Over/Under question for Dirty Holt

[MisterW]

I always appreciate your wrestling contributions.

Here's my question: what is the rationale for leading with the underhook side leg in an over under situation?

With an overhook side lead leg, it seems much easier to hit step around body locks, polish throws, etc. What are the advantages to an underhook side lead? I see a fairly large percentage of wrestlers that use this.

And please fill in additional advantages to an overhook side lead that I missed.

Thanks much!

 

[asian-glow]

He answered the underhook lead in another thread.

EDIT: I believe it was bc underhooking with the LEAD LEG gives up a step around bodylock.

Apologies for the mixup. You are correct I believe.

 

[MisterW]

Can you point me to the thread? I think you are confusing something, because underhooking with the trail leg would be overhooking with the lead leg, which I believe is what he advocates.

 

[Dirty Holt]

The advantages would be if they are hanging really hard, you can move them around and stop shots better. However, as soon as they come up, they have a step around. You have to be very ready for that if you start leading with the under.

Another advantage is if you have poor feel or setups, the distance to attacking the body is far less, and you can get to it quicker. Again, you give up the step around here but if you gotta score in a hurry, its an option.

Finally, if you get a massively advantageous body position where you just have an underhook he cannot get any pressure on, underhook lead is actually a better position. You see in most to all instructionals, the guy showing the move just walks straight into such a monster underhook position. He can then do whatever he wants to show with the underhook lead. Unfortunately for people watching the instructional, they dont realize this almost never happens.

This is the equivilent of showing getting to a bow and arrow choke with your head and chest way off the guys back, but you have both hooks in and he is flattened out belly down. Yeah, it works when you have the guy locked in the worst position in bjj, but when you have one hook, the guy is fighting, and you have a seatbelt that he is fighting the hands, leaning your back and head off of him is a terrible idea; you would want to be tight.

There is a reason why I know these things along with the wrestlers of my era. The rules used to force you into a over under clinch once or twice a match if a certain amount of points were not scored. I had to train this position for hundreds and hundreds of hours along with all of my competitors. You quickly learn what works and what doesnt because you have to compete out of this exact position.

 

[jack36767]

The advantages would be if they are hanging really hard, you can move them around and stop shots better. However, as soon as they come up, they have a step around. You have to be very ready for that if you start leading with the under.

Another advantage is if you have poor feel or setups, the distance to attacking the body is far less, and you can get to it quicker. Again, you give up the step around here but if you gotta score in a hurry, its an option.

Finally, if you get a massively advantageous body position where you just have an underhook he cannot get any pressure on, underhook lead is actually a better position. You see in most to all instructionals, the guy showing the move just walks straight into such a monster underhook position. He can then do whatever he wants to show with the underhook lead. Unfortunately for people watching the instructional, they dont realize this almost never happens.

This is the equivilent of showing getting to a bow and arrow choke with your head and chest way off the guys back, but you have both hooks in and he is flattened out belly down. Yeah, it works when you have the guy locked in the worst position in bjj, but when you have one hook, the guy is fighting, and you have a seatbelt that he is fighting the hands, leaning your back and head off of him is a terrible idea; you would want to be tight.

There is a reason why I know these things along with the wrestlers of my era. The rules used to force you into a over under clinch once or twice a match if a certain amount of points were not scored. I had to train this position for hundreds and hundreds of hours along with all of my competitors. You quickly learn what works and what doesnt because you have to compete out of this exact position.

If you were lord supreme commander of Freestyle would you prefer the current system of the shot clock passivity points or the old school over/under clench

 

[ArtemV]

If you were lord supreme commander of Freestyle would you prefer the current system of the shot clock passivity points or the old school over/under clench

Shot clock these days are just like a 30 second break. Nobody actually tries anything in this time for some reason.

 

[Dirty Holt]

If you were lord supreme commander of Freestyle would you prefer the current system of the shot clock passivity points or the old school over/under clench

The clinch was awesome for me because I was good at it, but somewhat of a fiasco getting guys into the position. Watching foreign wrestlers who can wrestle try to play the victim card like in soccer was tough to watch.

That being said, the shot clock could be administered better. Both guys can be active and not scoring, but the rule is if no one has scored at a minute, you put them on the clock. That seems way to fast and random when neither guy has any advantage yet, which is almost always the case when the shot clock hits put up. Also, almost every time, if two guys are active, one guy gets the shot clock then no matter what the action is, the other guy gets the 2nd. Its an advantage to be a little less active early because no matter what the other guy does unless he scores, he will get put on the clock.

 

[jack36767]

The clinch was awesome for me because I was good at it, but somewhat of a fiasco getting guys into the position. Watching foreign wrestlers who can wrestle try to play the victim card like in soccer was tough to watch.

That being said, the shot clock could be administered better. Both guys can be active and not scoring, but the rule is if no one has scored at a minute, you put them on the clock. That seems way to fast and random when neither guy has any advantage yet, which is almost always the case when the shot clock hits put up. Also, almost every time, if two guys are active, one guy gets the shot clock then no matter what the action is, the other guy gets the 2nd. Its an advantage to be a little less active early because no matter what the other guy does unless he scores, he will get put on the clock.

Agree completely about the shot clock, especially because of how inconsistent holding center seems to be as criteria

 

[DatCutman]

The clinch was awesome for me because I was good at it, but somewhat of a fiasco getting guys into the position. Watching foreign wrestlers who can wrestle try to play the victim card like in soccer was tough to watch.

That being said, the shot clock could be administered better. Both guys can be active and not scoring, but the rule is if no one has scored at a minute, you put them on the clock. That seems way to fast and random when neither guy has any advantage yet, which is almost always the case when the shot clock hits put up. Also, almost every time, if two guys are active, one guy gets the shot clock then no matter what the action is, the other guy gets the 2nd. Its an advantage to be a little less active early because no matter what the other guy does unless he scores, he will get put on the clock.

To piggy back off the thread, what resources would you recommend for someone to learn the over/under position? It's the grappling position I know the least about.

 

[Dirty Holt]

To piggy back off the thread, what resources would you recommend for someone to learn the over/under position? It's the grappling position I know the least about.

probably not the answer you want, but spending time in there figuring it out is much more beneficial than trying to mimick what someone else does. Once you figure out a few of the metagames in the position, it really varies by individual. It is probably the mos "feel" oriented position in combat sports because you are glued to each other and every move uses max explosion and speed. Its so volatile and you are so connected, you have to really feel it out rather than copying what others do in something like a DL sweep or a knee cut pass that has calculated steps that can be done at a moderate pace.

 

[DatCutman]

probably not the answer you want, but spending time in there figuring it out is much more beneficial than trying to mimick what someone else does. Once you figure out a few of the metagames in the position, it really varies by individual. It is probably the mos "feel" oriented position in combat sports because you are glued to each other and every move uses max explosion and speed. Its so volatile and you are so connected, you have to really feel it out rather than copying what others do in something like a DL sweep or a knee cut pass that has calculated steps that can be done at a moderate pace.

Let's say, for instance, I don't even know the metagames.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Let's say, for instance, I don't even know the metagames.

Depending on where you live, you could get a DI All American to help you for less than $50 an hour. If you want to go the internet route which is way harder, USAWrestling has a fundamentals course they offer for free with hours of instruction. I actually am on some of the videos. They are solid

 

[jack36767]

Let's say, for instance, I don't even know the metagames.