Ontario Midwife Pay Equity Decision To Be Released Soon

[EndlessCritic]

People often confuse the concepts of pay equality and pay equity. Pay equality is the idea that two people performing the same job should be paid equally. Pay equity is very different. Here in Ontario, we have pay equity, and here's how the Pay Equity Act defines its purpose:

Purpose
4 (1) The purpose of this Act is to redress systemic gender discrimination in compensation for work performed by employees in female job classes.

Identification of systemic gender discrimination
(2) Systemic gender discrimination in compensation shall be identified by undertaking comparisons between each female job class in an establishment and the male job classes in the establishment in terms of compensation and in terms of the value of the work performed. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.7, s. 4.

Think carefully about what the bolded portion is saying.

As you might be shocked to learn, midwives in Ontario earn significantly less than doctors in Ontario. As you might also be shocked to learn, over 99% of midwives are women, whereas doctors in Ontario are only about 39% women. (Source: https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/female-doctors-are-on-the-rise-in-canada/)

In 2013, the Ontario Association of Midwives launched a pay equity challenge against the province of Ontario. You see, since midwives perform work comparable to doctors (they say about 90%), they say that they should be paid 90% of what doctors earn. Since midwives are disproportionately women, this is a violation of the Pay Equity Act, and a direct example of systemic gender pay inequity. Here's how Macleans describes the argument: https://www.macleans.ca/society/why-do-men-make-more-money-than-women/

Midwives in Ontario offer one such example. The field is 99.9 per cent women, and the Association of Ontario Midwives (AOM) claims they have a gender wage gap of at least 40 per cent. That’s based on an assessment made by the provincial government in 1994, when midwifery became provincially regulated and funded. At the time, the province measured the value of midwives’ work against that of community clinic family physicians, and determined midwives should be paid about 91 per cent of what the comparable doctors earned. But since then, salaries for top-earning community clinic doctors have increased to about $200,000, while top-earning midwives earn $100,000.

Further reading: https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/site...man_Rights_Tribunal_of_Ontario_letterhead.pdf

https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/sites/default/files/Durber Report -Examining the Issue of Equitable Compn for ONs Midwives Nov 24 2013 (C0928577xA0E3A).pdf

https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/site...ng_Statement_June_1_2016_(C1622481xA0E3A).pdf

I am anxiously awaiting this decision to come out. The entire notion of pay equity itself is toxic, and makes a number of absurd assumptions. These include the assumption that wages are determined based on "value performed", and the notion that "female dominated jobs" are paid less than male jobs in an improper manner.

The within case highlights the absurdity. In Canada, it is true that there are more male doctors than women doctors. But this is because most doctors are currently over the age of 44. However, female doctors outnumber male doctors below the age of 44, suggesting a significant demographic shift: https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/04-age-sex-prv.pdf

And yet, this is the entire argument of the midwife association: That women are being discriminated against because a historical "female job" is being paid less than a historical "male job". This is in the face of data which shows that the historical male job of physicians in Ontario/Canada is becoming disproportionately women.

In light of the fact that doctors are increasingly (disproportionately) women, one would think that the simple response to the Midwives' argument is: Well then, why didn't you become a doctor?

tldr: Jordan Peterson, equity, toxic, etc.

 

[redwire]

Midwives call doctors when something goes wrong. Doctors call midwives when... I got nothing.

 

[SammyPops]

B/c its not like doctors do anything else than deliver babies. This one is BS.

I think the primary school teacher case is a strong example of pay equity/equality.

Edit- and Ontario & fed govt has been beating the shit out of docs for years.

Edit 2-oh and who saves the mom and baby when something goes wrong?

Too early in the morning to be triggered.

 

[Deleted member 484047]

Yah, kinda hard to side with the midwives on this one. Not sure what all goes into training for midwives, but lord knows doctors go tonschool for the better part of a decade to get their degree to become doctors. Unless a midwife does something comparable, and can preform as well as a doctor, I dont see how they can justify the same pay.

 

[Renard]

Lol @ having midwife as a profession. Yeah deliver your baby with the fat, immigrant lady who doesn't know anything about medicine, sounds safe.

 

[Bald1]

Why don't the guys doing oil changes at Jiffy Lube make the same as techs at a BMW dealership? How come apprentices make less than masters? Why does a person with more knowledge and schooling make more than a person with less? 90% of what type of doctor, exactly?

 

[JSN]

Jeez you’re supposed to never go full retard.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I remember very clearly when the Pay Equity Act was brought in Ontario under the NDP Bob Rae gov't.

I was a kid and my mom was a registered nurse and was making about $33k/yr which was about the average for a Nurse whereas Police and Fireman averages where $55k/yr.

No one could explain the disparity in what was very similar type of work other than the gov't would always take a very hard line against the female nurses union, knowing they did not have the history of striking and causing big problems. And over night the nurses (and my mom) got a 70% pay raise. It was a day of celebration for our family.

So obviously I am very biased on this topic and likely will not be able to see beyond my bias but I do believe that the logic was sound behind that equalization. This is not the free market where labour can shop itself around. The gov't has appointed (and this is where I think the problem lies) themselves the sole provider of these services and thereby has disproportionate power in any negotiation as any monopoly does. But the gov't also wields the stick of 'back to work legislation' which they wield often if 'essential services' strike.

So it seems to me that Pay Equity makes sense under that rubric where equal work should get equal pay.

Now that said the work done by a midwife does not equal that done by a doctor. IT is one small component and even in that they only do the straight forward births. IF they suspect complications or they arise they quickly pass the birth back to a doctor if they have any option to.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Lol @ having midwife as a profession. Yeah deliver your baby with the fat, immigrant lady who doesn't know anything about medicine, sounds safe.

You are pretty ignorant about midwifery. Not every procedure done on your teeth requires a dentist and the associated costs. The vast, vast majority of births do not require doctors and hospitals and the associated costs.

Midwives are highly trained and gain vast experience in their profession.

 

[EndlessCritic]

I remember very clearly when the Pay Equity Act was brought in Ontario under the NDP Bob Rae gov't.

I was a kid and my mom was a registered nurse and was making about $33k/yr which was about the average for a Nurse whereas Police and Fireman averages where $55k/yr.

No one could explain the disparity in what was very similar type of work other than the gov't would always take a very hard line against the female nurses union, knowing they did not have the history of striking and causing big problems. And over night the nurses (and my mom) got a 70% pay raise. It was a day of celebration for our family.

So obviously I am very biased on this topic and likely will not be able to see beyond my bias but I do believe that the logic was sound behind that equalization. This is not the free market where labour can shop itself around. The gov't has appointed (and this is where I think the problem lies) themselves the sole provider of these services and thereby has disproportionate power in any negotiation as any monopoly does. But the gov't also wields the stick of 'back to work legislation' which they wield often if 'essential services' strike.

So it seems to me that Pay Equity makes sense under that rubric where equal work should get equal pay.

Now that said the work done by a midwife does not equal that done by a doctor. IT is one small component and even in that they only do the straight forward births. IF they suspect complications or they arise they quickly pass the birth back to a doctor if they have any option to.

Nurses have very similar work to police officers and firefighters? Huh?

 

[Damien Karras]

Midwives call doctors when something goes wrong. Doctors call midwives when... I got nothing.

I went on a few dates with a midwife but she got pissy when I asked questions that started to go down the path toward a conclusion of "you guys do less than nurses, let alone doctors". She got pissy because she didn't have an answer for me.

Q"So where do you go for births?"
A"Mostly the hospital but some want the birth at home"
Q"Why mostly at hospitals when there is the possibility of doing at home?"
A"it's a personal choice but most women want to be somewhere where there are doctors in case something happens"
Q"Do doctors need to intervene often"
A"Not often but it happens on occasion"
Q"What kind of complications occur most often?"
A"the ones requiring cesarians like the baby isn't turned properly or the cord is wrapped around the neck"
Q"what do you do when it's a home birth and this happens?"
A"We always have a doctor on standby so we notify the doctor and arrange emergency transportation"
Q"Is there anything you can do when that happens?"
A"Not really because any additional procedure needs to be prescribed by the doctor such as blood transfusion or surgery"
Q"...so what are you there for, really?"
A"Uhhh you know this already because I told you. We assist women up until their birth in their birth plan and we are there for the delivery. We also work alongside OBGYNs in assisting them with patient illness diagnosis during their term if needed.
Q"assist so you can't do anything of what a OBGYN can do. You have to help then and that's it?"
A"Well...no"
Q"Why do women want a midwife rather than a doctor for a delivery when there is a chance of complications? I'm sorry I respect your profession I'm just trying to wrap my head around it."
A"REASONS!! GOSH!!!"

That was our third and last date. I also made a poop joke and she nearly barfed and gave me hell for it. She makes 112k a year


So no, I don't think they should make 90% of what doctors make. They are already overpaid at 112k

 

[Damien Karras]

You are pretty ignorant about midwifery. Not every procedure done on your teeth requires a dentist and the associated costs. The vast, vast majority of births do not require doctors and hospitals and the associated costs.

Midwives are highly trained and gain vast experience in their profession.

Highly trained yes but they still have their dicks in their hand when complications happen. And they do happen.

 

[irish_thug]

People often confuse the concepts of pay equality and pay equity. Pay equality is the idea that two people performing the same job should be paid equally. Pay equity is very different. Here in Ontario, we have pay equity, and here's how the Pay Equity Act defines its purpose:

Think carefully about what the bolded portion is saying.

As you might be shocked to learn, midwives in Ontario earn significantly less than doctors in Ontario. As you might also be shocked to learn, over 99% of midwives are women, whereas doctors in Ontario are only about 39% women. (Source: https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/female-doctors-are-on-the-rise-in-canada/)

In 2013, the Ontario Association of Midwives launched a pay equity challenge against the province of Ontario. You see, since midwives perform work comparable to doctors (they say about 90%), they say that they should be paid 90% of what doctors earn. Since midwives are disproportionately women, this is a violation of the Pay Equity Act, and a direct example of systemic gender pay inequity. Here's how Macleans describes the argument: https://www.macleans.ca/society/why-do-men-make-more-money-than-women/



Further reading: https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/site...man_Rights_Tribunal_of_Ontario_letterhead.pdf

https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/sites/default/files/Durber Report -Examining the Issue of Equitable Compn for ONs Midwives Nov 24 2013 (C0928577xA0E3A).pdf

https://www.ontariomidwives.ca/site...ng_Statement_June_1_2016_(C1622481xA0E3A).pdf

I am anxiously awaiting this decision to come out. The entire notion of pay equity itself is toxic, and makes a number of absurd assumptions. These include the assumption that wages are determined based on "value performed", and the notion that "female dominated jobs" are paid less than male jobs in an improper manner.

The within case highlights the absurdity. In Canada, it is true that there are more male doctors than women doctors. But this is because most doctors are currently over the age of 44. However, female doctors outnumber male doctors below the age of 44, suggesting a significant demographic shift: https://www.cma.ca/Assets/assets-library/document/en/advocacy/04-age-sex-prv.pdf

And yet, this is the entire argument of the midwife association: That women are being discriminated against because a historical "female job" is being paid less than a historical "male job". This is in the face of data which shows that the historical male job of physicians in Ontario/Canada is becoming disproportionately women.

In light of the fact that doctors are increasingly (disproportionately) women, one would think that the simple response to the Midwives' argument is: Well then, why didn't you become a doctor?

tldr: Jordan Peterson, equity, toxic, etc.

In other news Shawmen and witch-doctors earn significantly less.

 

[Damien Karras]

It's a redundant field unless the government says every birth should be performed by a midwife with doctors on standby in order to save costs. But then I can't help but think that we would see an increase of stillbirths or infant mortality because they just aren't capable of handling complications.

My niece was being handled by a midwife when she was being born and the cord was wrapping around her neck. The OBGYN happened to walk by the room when he heard the loud sounds from the medical device measuring the baby's vitals were triggering all sorts of sounds and alerts and then he saw my sister-in- law (who was his patient) was in the room with the midwives and other nurses were running around like headless chickens not knowing what to do. He got a quick sense of what was happening and jumped on SIL and manually turned the Baby away from the cord's direction and untangled it. He assisted for the rest of the birth. Had he not been there my niece probably wouldn't have survived or she would have cerebral palsy.

I'm not a big fan of midwives. FYI: my mother had a midwife for my birth. Yeah I'm fine

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

If anything, Nurse Practitioners should be the ones asking for more money -- especially with the push for them to take a larger role in family clinics (diagnostics and full prescription ability)

And it's not about this fictitious "we do 90 percent of what doctors do" it should be about are they capable of doing 90 percent of all that doctors can do -- and the answer is a resounding no.

They could however just push to go fully private and let the market / costumers decide if they are worth what doctors are.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Nurses have very similar work to police officers and firefighters? Huh?

yes.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Highly trained yes but they still have their dicks in their hand when complications happen. And they do happen.

Sure, but what are we saying then? Doctors should do everything in a hospital with regards to patient care because any time there is a complication with a patient the nurse calls a doctor and they do happen.

 

[MikeMcMann]

It's a redundant field unless the government says every birth should be performed by a midwife with doctors on standby in order to save costs. But then I can't help but think that we would see an increase of stillbirths or infant mortality because they just aren't capable of handling complications.

My niece was being handled by a midwife when she was being born and the cord was wrapping around her neck. The OBGYN happened to walk by the room when he heard the loud sounds from the medical device measuring the baby's vitals were triggering all sorts of sounds and alerts and then he saw my sister-in- law (who was his patient) was in the room with the midwives and other nurses were running around like headless chickens not knowing what to do. He got a quick sense of what was happening and jumped on SIL and manually turned the Baby away from the cord's direction and untangled it. He assisted for the rest of the birth. Had he not been there my niece probably wouldn't have survived or she would have cerebral palsy.

I'm not a big fan of midwives. FYI: my mother had a midwife for my birth. Yeah I'm fine

I was born at home with only a midwife present in London England many, many years ago. Also fine.

What you explain above happens in hospitals all over the world where nurses are looking after patients, some emergency happens and a doctor has to be called in.

Would you be for getting rid of nurses as redundant and only having doctors do all the care as they are the ones needed in the very rare exception cases?

the level of care would go up and you would likely see less hospital complication deaths which are positives but I do not think it would be affordable.

 

[Damien Karras]

Sure, but what are we saying then? Doctors should do everything in a hospital with regards to patient care because any time there is a complication with a patient the nurse calls a doctor and they do happen.

Things happen fast in the case of birth complications. When a baby is being choked by its umbilical cord, you have minutes to act. Imagine having to wait 15 minutes for an ambulance, then the 10 minute ride (at best) to the hospital, then the 2-5 min time to be wheeled into the ER for emergency procedures. Sure it's different at the hospital but why run the risk anyways? Births aren't simple medical procedures. They are simple enough, but not when complications happen and they happen more often than you think.

 

[Damien Karras]

I was born at home with only a midwife present in London England many, many years ago. Also fine.

What you explain above happens in hospitals all over the world where nurses are looking after patients, some emergency happens and a doctor has to be called in.

Would you be for getting rid of nurses as redundant and only having doctors do all the care as they are the ones needed in the very rare exception cases?

the level of care would go up and you would likely see less hospital complication deaths which are positives but I do not think it would be affordable.

I spent 6 months of the last year in the hospital and received a lot of care from nurses. They were the ones setting up my chemo bags, they looked at my vitals, they were the ones who would make recommendations to the doctor when I felt nauseous and needed meds etc. But when it came to recommending medical procedures and prescribing said treatments, it was always up to a doctor. They're the ones running the show. They're the ones capable of performing my spinal tap and women's epidurals during birth. They're the ones with the training to make quick decisions and act on the spot when there are complications.

Even if 99% of births happen without any incident, the 1% justifies the presence of a doctor for all birthday in my opinion. At the very least I would not allow home births, and would allow midwives to perform births under the guise of a doctor who routinely goes room to room during his shift to oversee what's going on. Home births are just retarded imo