Online Purchase or Gun Store?

[Krossinc]

Hey, quick question for many of you. I've decided to purchase a 12 gauge shotgun for self-defense in the home. Recently, our neighbors dog was actually shot (Dachsund, by a .22) and then thrown over our fence to try and make it look like our dogs had mauled it. It's occurred to me that I'm not comfortable with the situation so I am purchasing a firearm. While that story was unnecessary for the question I'm still pretty rocked by the fact someone would kill a dog for no reason.

A few questions. I'm looking at a REMINGTON 870. The gun will occasionally see target practice but will generally be for at-home defense (bird/buck shot). From what I've read it seems like a solid choice, I was just looking for opinions.

Also, I've noticed prices differ greatly. I've seen things like 'express super magnum,' 'marine magnum, 'tactical,' 'express self-defense'. The Express Self-defense is the cheapest so tell me to get that one! Also, buying online. Why is it so much cheaper and is it worth buying online or should I stick to a store/show.

 

[brackis1]

If you can find a better deal online; go for it. Don't forget about the FFL transfer fee to go pick it up when shipped is gonna cost 20-75 dollars depending on the shops around you.
If it's just for beat around/home defense then getting something used might also be wise to save money.

 

[Quintessons]

If you're just looking for home defense and don't want to spend much, try a gun shop they might have used shotguns. Also even WalMart sells some Mossbergs pretty cheap. I recommend you go to a shooting range and try different types, and see which one you like better. I was at the range yesterday, and I didn't shot a shotgun, Im buying a rifle, just to shoot and go hunting.

 

[Krossinc]

I've used firearms in the past but never had one of my own, so I'm not familiar with all the fees that you mentioned. If there's any further information about that I'd love to hear it. I'd prefer to buy new.

 

[Quintessons]

I've used firearms in the past but never had one of my own, so I'm not familiar with all the fees that you mentioned. If there's any further information about that I'd love to hear it. I'd prefer to buy new.

When you buy online, the weapon cannot be transferred to you. They have to send it to an FFL dealer, like your local gun shop. And they usually charge a fee for the transfer. The fee can vary from shop to shop.

 

[Krossinc]

Thanks, I'll find out that in the morning.

 

[Krossinc]

Actually a bit more help is required. Called up a local dealer to compare prices and waiting periods and such for this state. Ran in to a roadblock.

The state I am in is not my state of residence. I am finishing up my last few months at college but am a permanent resident of Virginia, not Georgia. They're not allowed to sell the gun to someone out of state. How does this work with online sellers? Would I be able to ship it to the FFL dealer and pick it up, even though I am not a resident of this state? How does it work? I assume people purchase firearms outside of their own state all the time while traveling, how is it usually done?

 

[Flexwave2003]

Do not buy anything you cant evaluate first hand before the purchase.

 

[brackis1]

Actually a bit more help is required. Called up a local dealer to compare prices and waiting periods and such for this state. Ran in to a roadblock.

The state I am in is not my state of residence. I am finishing up my last few months at college but am a permanent resident of Virginia, not Georgia. They're not allowed to sell the gun to someone out of state. How does this work with online sellers? Would I be able to ship it to the FFL dealer and pick it up, even though I am not a resident of this state? How does it work? I assume people purchase firearms outside of their own state all the time while traveling, how is it usually done?

You aren't as far as I know. Sorry

 

[hunto]

Hey, quick question for many of you. I've decided to purchase a 12 gauge shotgun for self-defense in the home. Recently, our neighbors dog was actually shot (Dachsund, by a .22) and then thrown over our fence to try and make it look like our dogs had mauled it. It's occurred to me that I'm not comfortable with the situation so I am purchasing a firearm. While that story was unnecessary for the question I'm still pretty rocked by the fact someone would kill a dog for no reason.

A few questions. I'm looking at a REMINGTON 870. The gun will occasionally see target practice but will generally be for at-home defense (bird/buck shot). From what I've read it seems like a solid choice, I was just looking for opinions.

Also, I've noticed prices differ greatly. I've seen things like 'express super magnum,' 'marine magnum, 'tactical,' 'express self-defense'. The Express Self-defense is the cheapest so tell me to get that one! Also, buying online. Why is it so much cheaper and is it worth buying online or should I stick to a store/show.

If I may, please don't even consider bird shot. It doesn't deal a lethal blow. You need buckshot. 00buck is .32cal pellets, 000 is .36.
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 1 is the shotgun test against drywall

On that site the guy tests different rounds against water jugs, which simulate the impact on a human. He also does tests against drywall, sand, brick, and more.

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

HTH

 

[Barut]

Hunto,

Do you know how close the range was? I've killed Ground hogs at 10 yards with #6 high brass shot. It was a mess. Ground hogs are tough animals. I shot one with my G23 .40 caliber earlier this year. I hit it in the body and it made it still made it to the hole. My point is that while bird shot is not my go to self defense round, I think it's adequate within 10 yards. Hell, the wad/cup doesn't even separate from the shot within 10 yards.

 

[Merrill]

Your best bet if you are not a resident is to buy from a private owner at residence or at a gun show.

 

[Merrill]

Hunto,

Do you know how close the range was? I've killed Ground hogs at 10 yards with #6 high brass shot. It was a mess. Ground hogs are tough animals. I shot one with my G23 .40 caliber earlier this year. I hit it in the body and it made it still made it to the hole. My point is that while bird shot is not my go to self defense round, I think it's adequate within 10 yards. Hell, the wad/cup doesn't even separate from the shot within 10 yards.

That's a good question about range.

Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition, .357 SIG -- A Solution in Search of a Problem?

I found this article a long time ago and it says:

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

But it does not say what distance it was tested at.

 

[hunto]

Hunto,

Do you know how close the range was? I've killed Ground hogs at 10 yards with #6 high brass shot. It was a mess. Ground hogs are tough animals. I shot one with my G23 .40 caliber earlier this year. I hit it in the body and it made it still made it to the hole. My point is that while bird shot is not my go to self defense round, I think it's adequate within 10 yards. Hell, the wad/cup doesn't even separate from the shot within 10 yards.

It seems he was firing from around 10 yards.

 

[jwalk2515]

Hunto: excellent info. There is no reason to load birdshot.

I only pack 00 in my shotty, for some unknown reason I keep a box of slugs handy.

 

[clinchman]

I've got a whole slew of guns and keep 3 or 4 handy for home defense purposes, and one of them is a shotgun. I've got a bean bag round for shot number one, birdshot for numbers 2 and 3, 00 on number four, and a 3" magnum fifth. My thinking is that as a situation escalates, so will my use of force. If there is one man, he'll get the non-lethal option, If another man appears, then the use of force become nessicary, but I do not want to risk shooting through a wall and killing/injuring someone else. If a fourth shot is needed, the situation is dire, and if I've got to use my fifth shot, it is very likely I may have the desire to "take someone with me". What you use is very dependant on your situation and where you live. If you're single and isolated, use whatever you want, but as population density in the immediate area increases, you have more to worry about.

 

[hunto]

I've got a whole slew of guns and keep 3 or 4 handy for home defense purposes, and one of them is a shotgun. I've got a bean bag round for shot number one, birdshot for numbers 2 and 3, 00 on number four, and a 3" magnum fifth. My thinking is that as a situation escalates, so will my use of force. If there is one man, he'll get the non-lethal option, If another man appears, then the use of force become nessicary, but I do not want to risk shooting through a wall and killing/injuring someone else. If a fourth shot is needed, the situation is dire, and if I've got to use my fifth shot, it is very likely I may have the desire to "take someone with me". What you use is very dependant on your situation and where you live. If you're single and isolated, use whatever you want, but as population density in the immediate area increases, you have more to worry about.

I hope, for your sake, if bad guys visit, you get the time to cycle to rounds 4 and 5.

 

[clinchman]

Something about a bean bag from a shotgun to the face or chest at the distance of about 15 feet doesn't seem like something a would-be robber would enjoy. I suppose if it is, I'll get to put this "hundreds of tiny holes in your body tends to make you run away" theory to the test.

 

[Barut]

Enjoy? I'm concerned with killing/incapacitating intruders, not making them uncomfortable. If Hunto says that he saw a show stating that birdshot is inadequate to reliably kill a man, then it is.

Indian burns are uncomfortable, but not sufficient for self-defense.

 

[hunto]

Something about a bean bag from a shotgun to the face or chest at the distance of about 15 feet doesn't seem like something a would-be robber would enjoy. I suppose if it is, I'll get to put this "hundreds of tiny holes in your body tends to make you run away" theory to the test.

The Box O' Truth #17 - I Hear You Knocking - ****l Doors - Page 1
What #8 birdshot does to a common ****l door.

What 00 Buckshot does to a door.

from the operator of the website, an ex-lawman and gun enthusiast;
"Lessons learned:
1. ****l front doors provide concealment, not cover. (For those that might not understand the difference, "concealment" means it will hide you and "cover" means that it will stop bullets)

2. Don't think a ****l door will slow down any common round. It only stopped birdshot, which is a very poor penetrator."

If a bad guy is doing something that warrants pulling a gun on him, I'm not shooting him with a bean bag. This isn't 'Ma and Pa Kettle' scaring off varmints with rocksalt. If you feel someone is enough of a threat to pull a gun on them, esp in your home, you shoot to STOP the threat, not piss him off or hurt him or make him feel bad.