Official Judo Thread

[RJ Green]

Same opinion. Collar and sleeve has some teaching advantages, but for older, less flexible, and bigger students it is a lousy setup.

It is just not a good setup for a physically strong and inflexible player. In judo they insist on teaching everyone like they are a twelve year old boy.

 

[Regal Boy]

MMA canvases are hard as fuck, professional fighters are hopped up on adrenaline, no grappling style on earth is contested on goddamn rocks, you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, and this is why new accounts can't post garbage threads <3

So what you're telling me is that Judo is worthless. I dont agree.

No amount of adrenaline will help you when your skull is cracked and your neck is broken and your internal organs are ruptured. All the people in the video were hopped up on adrenaline, it doesn't help. Grappling styles aren't contested on rocks because falling on a rock could kill you. Real fights happen on rocks.

The canvases aren't "hard as fuck" I've felt mats before. It's not even close to as hard as a wooden floor, let alone sidewalk cement. It's significantly lower than any surface you're standing on in day to day life. Shit dude, it's lower than dry dirt. Being thrown on dry dirt imparts more force into your body than being thrown on the mats. That's the point of them, you want to be able to practice and spar and fight without murdering each other.

Guys will take a straight suplex to the dome then just roll over into guard. That shit's not real, you know its not real. I stand by my position. The current rules are artificially eliminating an entire aspect of fighting because it would end matches very quickly and it wouldn't be as entertaining, although it would be more realistic.

 

[Kbits]

So the argument is that MMA (a sport) is a poor simulacrum of a real fight (tm) because it has thin padded floors? Should they fight on concrete then to "keep it more real"? Maybe they should also fight bare knuckle?

Are you assuming that mma is meant to be a street fight simulation instead of a sport?

Plenty of people have been KOd from high amplitude throws in MMA. Enough that people respect them and fear them.

Plenty of people have also been KOd getting thrown onto tatami.

Matting (and other safety features like gloves and mouth guards) are there to keep things safe and prolong entertainment. It still fucking hurts. People still get knocked the fuck out or break shit.

I bet if we took one of your YouTube stars and got someone skilled to throw them in the cage, they'd get KOd just the same. They'd also get KOd with a liver punch or a head kick, despite "unrealistic" gloves and mouth guard.

You're not seeing more throw KOs in high level mma because you're looking at two equally skilled and conditioned opponents. Who grapple well. And know to tuck their heads. Watch smaller, local shows with freak mismatches.

 

[Kbits]

see, the thing I think lot, a loooot of people space on about good judoka, is we don't have to throw you on your back. we're supposed to. we're supposed to do a lot of things. yeah, if I choke you, you die, but holy fuck all the different ways I can throw you on your head.

drop sode where you don't let go or rotate em over

or te guruma with half the rotation

and osotogari is just...if you fall correctly you wanna die anyway, but if Tori wants you both to land on the back of your head, that can happen too...

YAY JUDO!!!

You can modify somethings and make them meaner for sure...but others have such a deep groove in 'muscle memory' that trying intentionally land someone onto their neck / under rotate a throw makes the throw worse. May as well just throw them the right way and be done with it.

Not osoto gari, though. I'm pretty sure normal osoto gari could be used to legitimately kill someone on concrete. Enough people die from getting punched (and falling over backwards) while out for a night on the town that countries like Oz have mandatory (steep) sentencing for sucker punching someone.

And that's just falling over, not being propelled from 6 feet up at 30mph.

IIRC almost all the fatalities reported by the Judo Victims Association (http://judojiko.net/eng/) are either osoto or drop seoi based. Then again, Japan...

 

[Regal Boy]

No, they don't need to fight on concrete. We should just add the rule that if you're thrown to the mat hard, you are TKO, regardless of if you can continue to fight from there (because you wouldn't be able to continue if you had been thrown that way onto cement).

TBH yes, I think that MMA should be as close a simulation of a fight on the street as we can make it. So far it pretty much does everything right, except maybe not fighting in a Gi (jacket) and artificially stunting slams and throws.
There should be two subsets, one in a gi to represent fighting in a jacket, and one without a gi to represent fighting in a t shirt. Fighters should be bare knuckle + wearing sneakers like in Savate. A knockout, submission, or slam should be an immediate victory.

Seeing that high amplitude throws still work even on the mats, that just gives more strength to my argument. Throws are insanely effective, the most effective tbh. More effective than strikes or submissions if done properly. No one denies that punching a dude and knocking him out, or breaking his arm in an armbar are effective techniques. But for some reason, we have massive amounts of evidence that also show that smashing a mans head through the cement street or thowing him onto his back/neck onto the sidewalk ends him, and we don't allow these moves to count as TKOs in a cage fight? That makes no sense.

I think entertainment should come second to realism. Fighters don't have to fight on concrete for us to act as though they are. I mean, just in 5 seconds I found a video of Cormier tossing people around in ways that would be breaking their fucking bones and rupturing their organs if they were slammed in these ways on the street, but they just roll over and start grappling and the fight continues simply because the rules and the environment are artificially limiting these moves.

 

[RJ Green]

i didn't tell you that judo is garbage. i told you as somebody with a black belt in judo, who played football for 10 years, who's been snowboarding for 25 years, that you have an exaggerated idea about the forces involved with throws and the damage they inflict.

people at the x-games take much harder falls at much higher velocities into much harder surfaces and don't outright explode. athletes also condition their bodies to such impacts, and know how to fall.

slam KOs count as TKOs providing that they didn't come as a result of spiking.

real fights don't happen on rocks. real fights happen in impoverished areas between people squabbling over resources or perceived slights to their ego.

nobody cares about your arbitrary definition of realism, and nobody wants to fight an NHB MMA match on concrete to satiate your bloodlust.

 

[Kbits]

i didn't tell you that judo is garbage. i told you as somebody with a black belt in judo

Congrats! Deets?

I'm thinking of biting the bullet and getting it done in 2019 myself. I've had some (many) issues with the local NGB so will be flying out to another country to try for it (batsugun). The fact that the local NGB has basically said "we won't recognise your grade" means exactly zero to me any more.

 

[RJ Green]

i didn't sherbrag about it since it wasn't faixa marrom. i should probably feel like i've earned it, but i don't. i try to though. every day.

 

[Regal Boy]

People at the X-games don't fall in ways that impart more force into their body than a slam or throw onto concrete imparts, especially when dumped straight into the ground without protective gear. And even then, the X-games has some of the highest injury rates of all athletic competitions.

I've already linked to video evidence of what a slam on concrete or even just dirt does to a person. People sometimes just trip on the street and break wrists and fracture other parts of the body. The MMA canvas is significantly lower on the GMax scale than concrete sidewalk, multiple times lower. And even then, you can sometimes knock a dude out by throwing him on the mat. I've literally never seen a video or anything of a guy being thrown to concrete and just continuing to fight.

This is a research paper doing on the topic for cheerleader safety. They outline the GMax scores for mats vs concrete and the difference is like 15x or more force imparted on the person. Dry dirt is about 3x-5x as powerful as mats
http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-44.6.595

And you have to remember, this is just falls, not slams and proper Judo throws. Just FALLING from half a foot onto your head onto concrete gives you a concussion. Being THROWN with an osoto or suplex onto it could kill you.

I live in an upper middle class area of a large city and I still see bar fights happen. Duels used to be a thing of the upper class gentlemen. I don't think it's about economic conditions. And even so, if that's where real fights happen, than that's what should be simulated in MMA.

I dont have bloodlust. I don't want to hurt anyone (nor could I, I'm only a green belt and I weigh 150lbs lol). I just think if MMA is supposed to be THE martial art that represents "real fighting", it's not quite there yet. It's very close, but it's not there yet. Combat Sambo gets closest out of all styles I've seen, but even it artificially stunts throws and slams. Fighters will approach a fight very differently if they think being thrown to the ground will result in a TKO, just like they'd fight differently if they were fighting on concrete instead of soft mats. In real life you don't fight on soft mats.

TBH I think you should be happy from what I'm saying. You're a black belt in THE most effective single martial art on the planet.

 

[Problem Child]

It also helps to keep fingers from dislocating.
I have a finger which will consistently refuse to stay in place.
So i tape that traitor, so that he has to stay in position for the fight, even if he doesn't want to.

I wish I had done this early on , I have Mallet finger on my pinky. Definitely affects my grip.

 

[Problem Child]

I'm not surprised. Think about it though, why lift uke if you want to throw him down ?

Kazushi.

 

[Problem Child]

So what you're telling me is that Judo is worthless. I dont agree.

No amount of adrenaline will help you when your skull is cracked and your neck is broken and your internal organs are ruptured. All the people in the video were hopped up on adrenaline, it doesn't help. Grappling styles aren't contested on rocks because falling on a rock could kill you. Real fights happen on rocks.

The canvases aren't "hard as fuck" I've felt mats before. It's not even close to as hard as a wooden floor, let alone sidewalk cement. It's significantly lower than any surface you're standing on in day to day life. Shit dude, it's lower than dry dirt. Being thrown on dry dirt imparts more force into your body than being thrown on the mats. That's the point of them, you want to be able to practice and spar and fight without murdering each other.

Guys will take a straight suplex to the dome then just roll over into guard. That shit's not real, you know its not real. I stand by my position. The current rules are artificially eliminating an entire aspect of fighting because it would end matches very quickly and it wouldn't be as entertaining, although it would be more realistic.

We had a guy at our club get seoi nagi’d right onto his dome and fractured his neck. The injury was very real.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Same opinion. Collar and sleeve has some teaching advantages, but for older, less flexible, and bigger students it is a lousy setup.

It is just not a good setup for a physically strong and inflexible player. In judo they insist on teaching everyone like they are a twelve year old boy.

Bolded for emphasis

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

On the topic of the most dangerous throw for someone with very bad intentions, I persist in saying that drop morote is the most dangerous.

I think that with enough tweeking it is not so hard to not make uke finish his rotation and land on his neck/top of his head. That, and the drop, in combination with the lapel arm which is essentially pushing uke' head righ in the direction of the floor, is just recipe for murder.

I hate morotes and drop seois with a passion generally, and quite literally avoid drop morote artists in randori.

Yeah I'm a pussy.

 

[RJ Green]

civvies fall SO hard too. just pushing someone bro-style runs the risk of them breaking themselves as they hit the ground on account of how hard they tense up.

anybody with a good osotogari could just palm ukes head like a basketball. bleck.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

civvies fall SO hard too. just pushing someone bro-style runs the risk of them breaking themselves as they hit the ground on account of how hard they tense up.

anybody with a good osotogari could just palm ukes head like a basketball. bleck.

what are civvies? Civilians? lol.

 

[A Muse of Fire]

My club does a lot of footsweeps because they are easier falls for newbies but then newbies struggle to do them compared to hip throws. Its frustrating.


However there is a now wrestling class at my gym I'm excited for.

 

[Kbits]

Did someone say...KUMITE?!? I’m sorry, I mean ProJudo?



Look at that mothefucking leitai. Look at those promos. Look at Pedro vs Hawn. Look at the pick ups. Look at the DJ. Look at my increasingly apparent erection.

 

[Russky]

My club does a lot of footsweeps because they are easier falls for newbies but then newbies struggle to do them compared to hip throws. Its frustrating.

De ashi is much harder fall than ippon seoi nage because it is harder to help partner landing. Even sode tsurikomi goshi is an easy fall with mindful partner.
Drop knee seoi may be very hard. I hurt partner once with drop morote seoi nage on a crash pad.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

But he's right, you know?