Official Judo Thread VIII

[Uchi Mata]

No, it means that 100 years of collective Judo knowledge has made it so that the probability of a beginner finding a better way is nearly zero.

I've also experimented with all sorts of osoto and other throws as a beginner. The textbook throws won out in the end. They are a treasure trove of knowledge.

In Kano's time Judo was rudimentary. He was made master in what, 2 years in each art? Some of that wouldn't pass muster for a shodan today, like old newaza wouldn't pass for a BJJ blue.

But those textbook throws are the rudimentary varieties Kano was teaching. Nobody's fault, it takes time for an art to evolve. But watching high level matches where nobody ever uses supposedly textbook variations (essentially all uchi matas feature the high elbow, most seio nages are dropping, osoto is almost always at an angle with a drive rather than a downward sleeve pull, ouchi much more often features tori looking over the 'wrong' shoulder, etc) yet the non-textbook variations they use are remarkably consistent from competitor to competitor would lead most people to believe that there are more effective ways to execute these moves than the old textbook ways, that modern competitors (from the 70s on, really) have found these methods and use them constantly, and that most of us would have better results if we studied modern competitive Judo rather than Mifune tapes.

I think you're right, it's extremely unlikely that beginners would find better ways to do these throws. But nobody is looking to beginners to try and determine what works, we're looking at Worlds and Olympics. The best fighters in the world. And very few of those fighters perform their medal winning throws in what would be called textbook fashion. Osoto is just one of the most glaring examples, but every throw shows the same pattern.

What kills me is when young competitors see someone like Koga using a seio nage variation to great effect and want to try it, and their old tradition bound coaches tell them that while Koga might get away with that, they can't and should just practice the textbook style. Well, Koga probably got that same advice but rather than follow it he figured out a variation that worked well for what he brought to the table physically and mentally and made it work on everyone. It's a process basically all competitors go through: learn the basics, figure out how to modify them to work for you, have success. Slavishly working for years to try and attain some perfect throw is silly, that throw might have been perfect for whoever wrote the book but it's unlikely it's also the perfect way for you to do it. Every martial art is like this. You learn the basics, get some understanding of the mechanics, and then modify and improvise until it works for you.

And as a side note, I've been doing an off angle driving osoto for a decade and had it done on me many times, I've never seen it cause a knee injury. The only serious knee injury I've ever seen in Judo was from a 350 yellow belt trying yoko wakare on a middleweight brown. Saying the move is wrong because of injury risk strikes me as fear mongering just like anti-leglock bias in BJJ. Some senior people don't like it and all of a sudden it's a deadly technique. I don't buy it.

 

[Darkslide632]

I think it's important to ensure that the classical techniques stay intact. I also think that there are some techniques that are barely usable in their classic form, and most are rarely used in their classic form at ALL. That said, attacking the side of uke's knee with osoto seems like a terrible idea.

Can you post a video? I'd like to see it. My guess is that it is more ashi guruma, which would be closer to the knee) than osoto gari, but I could be wrong.

I also think if you're worried about uke's knee when throwing tai otoshi, you might want to revisit the technique.

And as a side note, I've been doing an off angle driving osoto for a decade and had it done on me many times, I've never seen it cause a knee injury.

I've never had anyone really reap the side of my knee. Have you? I've had people BLOCK the side of my knee, and I've have people reap the side of my shin, but never reap the side of my knee.

I already want to go back to the old thread.

You shouldn't. It's easy to sit around and have everyone agree with everyone else, but it doesn't exactly spark intellectual debate or drive meaningful conversations. Disagreements like this are when the best information starts to show up, IMO.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I've never had anyone really reap the side of my knee. Have you? I've had people BLOCK the side of my knee, and I've have people reap the side of my shin, but never reap the side of my knee.

What reaping throws are 'supposed' to be and what they actually are are two very different things. It's extremely rare to see a true, classical style reap where tori enters, swings his leg up in the air, and then chops back into uke's leg to throw. In that sense, I've never seen anyone reap the side of anyone's knees. Uke would basically have to be standing completely still and non-resisting. What I have seen, and done, thousands of times is get my angle, get my kuzushi, and quickly reach my leg out to catch uke behind the knee which I then block and drive him over. Basically all real reaping throws are like this, whether it's osoto, ouchi, kouchi, or kosoto gari. I don't see how that would blow anyone's knee.

 

[Darkslide632]

Ok. Blocking at the knee isn't an issue. That happens a lot in various throws.

That said, Riner sure reaped the fuck out of the guy in that video up above. lol. If he did that to the side of that guy's knee, I can't imagine it would end well.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Ok. Blocking at the knee isn't an issue. That happens a lot in various throws.

That said, Riner sure reaped the fuck out of the guy in that video up above. lol. If he did that to the side of that guy's knee, I can't imagine it would end well.

That is literally the only video I know of from high level competition where you can see a true, full reap and it took one of the most physically amazing judoka of all time to pull it off. Even then though, I'm not sure it would destroy the knee unless the foot got caught in the mat. You can find plenty of examples of very hard harai goshis at more of a side angle without total knee destruction. Usually when you see knees get hurt it's when the angle of the pressure is downward, e.g. Jon Jones's oblique kicks:

http://fightland.vice.com/fight-school/the-oblique-kick-with-jon-jones

Because in that scenario the knee can't move and gets hyper-extended. Another example would be heel hooks, but even those you can only get the tap if you can immobilize uke's hips long enough to torque the knee such that he can't move in the direction of the pressure. So while I suppose you could hurt a knee really bad with a side reap, it would be more of a freak accident. Probably the only throw where I could see it happen with any regularity is kani basami, again because the angle of the pressure would make it hard to get out of just by taking a fall.

 

[QingTian]

I think you're right, it's extremely unlikely that beginners would find better ways to do these throws. But nobody is looking to beginners to try and determine what works, we're looking at Worlds and Olympics. The best fighters in the world. And very few of those fighters perform their medal winning throws in what would be called textbook fashion. Osoto is just one of the most glaring examples, but every throw shows the same pattern.

My point is that competition and practice are two different things. It is extremely difficult to open up a high level player to a throw, so you force the issue given the time constraints.

However, that is neither most efficient for throwing the common person, nor does it teach you how to really throw.

If you were compliant uke, would you rather someone perform a driving osoto, or a textbook one? My driving osoto would barely knock someone over, whereas a textbook one you could leave a crater.

And it's not all about power, but that the power reflects the efficiency of the move.

 

[Darkslide632]

That is literally the only video I know of from high level competition where you can see a true, full reap and it took one of the most physically amazing judoka of all time to pull it off. Even then though, I'm not sure it would destroy the knee unless the foot got caught in the mat. You can find plenty of examples of very hard harai goshis at more of a side angle without total knee destruction. Usually when you see knees get hurt it's when the angle of the pressure is downward, e.g. Jon Jones's oblique kicks:

http://fightland.vice.com/fight-school/the-oblique-kick-with-jon-jones

Because in that scenario the knee can't move and gets hyper-extended. Another example would be heel hooks, but even those you can only get the tap if you can immobilize uke's hips long enough to torque the knee such that he can't move in the direction of the pressure. So while I suppose you could hurt a knee really bad with a side reap, it would be more of a freak accident. Probably the only throw where I could see it happen with any regularity is kani basami, again because the angle of the pressure would make it hard to get out of just by taking a fall.

Yeah, well, I think that's really it. The foot getting stuck. When teaching beginners the basics of foot sweeps, my instructor used to bring out a broomstick and sweep it. As he moved further up the stick, the bottom moved less and less. If we're not talking about literally reaping, like Teddy did - then it's a non-issue for me. I don't think blocking at the knee is a problem.

I HAVE actually had a couple knees that got tweaked when I hit my harai at a weird angle. Not often, and they certainly weren't "destroyed" but it has happened.

I'm just throwing shit out there to further the discussion. Osoto is not a favorite throw of mine, and I certainly couldn't do any kind of reaching osoto with my tiny little hobbit legs.

 

[QingTian]

The only serious knee injury I've ever seen in Judo was from a 350 yellow belt trying yoko wakare on a middleweight brown. Saying the move is wrong because of injury risk strikes me as fear mongering just like anti-leglock bias in BJJ. Some senior people don't like it and all of a sudden it's a deadly technique. I don't buy it.

I probably can name a dozen people at my club who have had or need knee surgery. They got it in different ways, but it's clear that not everyone does safe Judo. These are high level players, way better than me, injured all the same. One old timer virtually never was able to do Judo again. Lately there was a spurt where it seemed like every new player was getting hurt. Now that I'm reaching old fart age with one intact knee, I think a little concern for safety is warranted.

 

[Uchi Mata]

My point is that competition and practice are two different things. It is extremely difficult to open up a high level player to a throw, so you force the issue given the time constraints.

However, that is neither most efficient for throwing the common person, nor does it teach you how to really throw.

If you were compliant uke, would you rather someone perform a driving osoto, or a textbook one? My driving osoto would barely knock someone over, whereas a textbook one you could leave a crater.

And it's not all about power, but that the power reflects the efficiency of the move.

It's power you'll never be able to apply to a resisting opponent because the angle of entry is so unrealistic with even a modicum of resistance. It's like when TKD guys throwing tornado kicks with two spins. Sure, you knocked the crap out of that hand mitt, but you could never actually hit someone like that.

If you're worried about throwing compliant partners as hard as you possibly can, sure, textbook is the best. I just don't consider that a useful skill, nor in any way what Judo was intended to be. You're essentially describing a demonstration art like modern wushu. I'd much rather practice a realistic entry angle, kuzushi, and kake than a 'textbook' variation that is never going to work in real life, hoping the skills transfer to randori. To me this argument is no different than karate guys chambering their reverse punches at the waist during kata because that's the 'correct' way (presumably because their teachers told them so and so forth) and then not being as good at throwing them from chin level in sparring. Sure, they're not wasting all their time working on the classical variety, they're just not practicing in the most efficient manner possible for what they actually want to accomplish, in their case hitting someone in the case of Judo throwing a resisting opponent.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I probably can name a dozen people at my club who have had or need knee surgery. They got it in different ways, but it's clear that not everyone does safe Judo. These are high level players, way better than me, injured all the same. One old timer virtually never was able to do Judo again. Lately there was a spurt where it seemed like every new player was getting hurt. Now that I'm reaching old fart age with one intact knee, I think a little concern for safety is warranted.

People definitely get injured, but I don't think there are many specific moves that you can point to and say 'that's the killer throw that destroys knees/hips/shoulders etc.' Most people who do Judo long enough end up needing joint surgeries, my first coaches needed hip replacements, my current coaches have knee problems, I've had shoulder and very serious back problems, but none of those were from a single throw. It's just very damaging to get thrown a lot, it's not a natural thing for the human body. Especially in the west where people are taller and their hips higher, your typical fall is from a much higher level than for the average Japanese person. In theory almost any throw could be seen as especially damaging, but unless there's a rash of injuries that can be directly attributed to it I'm skeptical that it's the throw and not just the somewhat injurious practice of Judo in the first place that's the culprit.

 

[QingTian]

What kills me is when young competitors see someone like Koga using a seio nage variation to great effect and want to try it, and their old tradition bound coaches tell them that while Koga might get away with that, they can't and should just practice the textbook style. Well, Koga probably got that same advice but rather than follow it he figured out a variation that worked well for what he brought to the table physically and mentally and made it work on everyone. It's a process basically all competitors go through: learn the basics, figure out how to modify them to work for you, have success. Slavishly working for years to try and attain some perfect throw is silly, that throw might have been perfect for whoever wrote the book but it's unlikely it's also the perfect way for you to do it. Every martial art is like this. You learn the basics, get some understanding of the mechanics, and then modify and improvise until it works for you.

Koga did receive the traditional advice, which he acknowledges was hard but paid off. He teaches traditionally now, as does Yamashita with his osoto. So why do even the greats have such a "disconnect". Or maybe it's more likely there isn't a disconnect?

[YT]watch?v=qme3cDTKDK8[/YT]
[YT]watch?v=aAMG8Uqgah4[/YT]

 

[QingTian]

It's power you'll never be able to apply to a resisting opponent because the angle of entry is so unrealistic with even a modicum of resistance. It's like when TKD guys throwing tornado kicks with two spins. Sure, you knocked the crap out of that hand mitt, but you could never actually hit someone like that.

If you're worried about throwing compliant partners as hard as you possibly can, sure, textbook is the best. I just don't consider that a useful skill, nor in any way what Judo was intended to be. You're essentially describing a demonstration art like modern wushu. I'd much rather practice a realistic entry angle, kuzushi, and kake than a 'textbook' variation that is never going to work in real life, hoping the skills transfer to randori. To me this argument is no different than karate guys chambering their reverse punches at the waist during kata because that's the 'correct' way (presumably because their teachers told them so and so forth) and then not being as good at throwing them from chin level in sparring. Sure, they're not wasting all their time working on the classical variety, they're just not practicing in the most efficient manner possible for what they actually want to accomplish, in their case hitting someone in the case of Judo throwing a resisting opponent.

I added the last sentence about efficiency because I was afraid the argument would go this way. It's not just about throwing someone hard. It's that you can find ways to require less strength to throw, which is demonstrated by the power when you actually use strength.

Look how Yamashita sets up his traditional osoto in the video above. That is also one of my favorite ways. Way easier than doing a driving osoto. I could do it all day, and slam people very hard.

I just can't do it against world level players in 5 minutes, but that's not a problem I have to worry about.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

No, it means that 100 years of collective Judo knowledge has made it so that the probability of a beginner finding a better way is nearly zero.

I've also experimented with all sorts of osoto and other throws as a beginner. The textbook throws won out in the end. They are a treasure trove of knowledge.

In Kano's time Judo was rudimentary. He was made master in what, 2 years in each art? Some of that wouldn't pass muster for a shodan today, like old newaza wouldn't pass for a BJJ blue.

I am indeed a noob, but I did not claim that I found a better way to do o soto. I was TAUGHT a better way to do o soto FOR ME.

It's great that you were able to experiment as a noob, and found that the classic versions of throws worked FOR YOU. See where I am going? Martials arts, for millenia, have been about people using what they had, and what they knew, in the most effective way possible. Kano knew that the judo syllabus should never be static, and be ever evolving to meet the needs of its practitioners. It baffles me that so many martial artists are stuck in this "this is the only way" rubbish, despite heaps and heaps of evidence to the contrary.

Judo being rudimentary during Kano's time is a red herring. It is irrelevant.

 

[doyourkegles22]

Call me when this shit is over~

 

[QingTian]

I am indeed a noob, but I did not claim that I found a better way to do o soto. I was TAUGHT a better way to do o soto FOR ME.

It's great that you were able to experiment as a noob, and found that the classic versions of throws worked FOR YOU. See where I am going? Martials arts, for millenia, have been about people using what they had, and what they knew, in the most effective way possible. Kano knew that the judo syllabus should never be static, and be ever evolving to meet the needs of its practitioners. It baffles me that so many martial artists are stuck in this "this is the only way" rubbish, despite heaps and heaps of evidence to the contrary.

Judo being rudimentary during Kano's time is a red herring. It is irrelevant.

Good luck with your training.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Call me when this shit is over~

How come? This shit is fun. I love to debate.

The only reason I don't do it in the Heavies anymore is because it was easy pickings. There was nary a cogent or not fallacious argument to be found.

Good luck with your training.

Same to you.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I added the last sentence about efficiency because I was afraid the argument would go this way. It's not just about throwing someone hard. It's that you can find ways to require less strength to throw, which is demonstrated by the power when you actually use strength.

Look how Yamashita sets up his traditional osoto in the video above. That is also one of my favorite ways. Way easier than doing a driving osoto. I could do it all day, and slam people very hard.

I just can't do it against world level players in 5 minutes, but that's not a problem I have to worry about.

The way Yamashita and Koga show technique is completely different than how they actually did it. Koga seio nage especially is very, very different from traditional. Why they show it differently than the way they did it in their competitive days is unknown, though I'd tend to guess it's that ludicrously high level of respect for authority and tradition that the Japanese seem to have rather than any concern for efficacy. But I don't know. In any case, I only train Judo to put people on their backs for competitive purposes, so I really don't care at all about whether what I'm doing is 'correct' in some larger sense as long as it keeps working. I also feel no compunction to bow before received wisdom if that wisdom is coming from anywhere other than competition effectiveness. But people train Judo for different reasons and I know you're less concerned with just throwing people than with throwing people in what you think is the proper way. We clearly disagree, and it's useful to have this argument from time to time to show that there are differing viewpoints, but I don't think we need to have it any more today. You and I at least.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I probably can name a dozen people at my club who have had or need knee surgery. They got it in different ways, but it's clear that not everyone does safe Judo. These are high level players, way better than me, injured all the same. One old timer virtually never was able to do Judo again. Lately there was a spurt where it seemed like every new player was getting hurt. Now that I'm reaching old fart age with one intact knee, I think a little concern for safety is warranted.

You can barely see a fully intact japanese judoka in his 40s. And they practice textbook throws.
Just to compare, the wrestlers I know also have health problems, but thats mainly been overweight. I think the habit of cutting weight catches up with them once the competition years are over.
For all the dangers of kanibasami, kawazugake and etc, sambo guys are most probably the healthiest I know from all. Not trying to brag here.
I would like to put something else here- the majority of judo players do not actually warm up with anything else, but ukemi and uchikomi. Various running laps and partner carrying, used in wrestling and sambo are maybe the most beneficial for unjury protection during practice...

 

[The Karate Man]

Most wrestlers are on steroids, lol.

As far as health goes, my vote goes to BJJ. When I went to a Relson Gracie seminar, that old fucker was like 70 and he didn't appear to have any problems whatsoever. On top of that, he could tap everybody in the room with relative ease, including the black belts in their 30's.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Most wrestlers are on steroids, lol.

As far as health goes, my vote goes to BJJ. When I went to a Relson Gracie seminar, that old fucker was like 70 and he didn't appear to have any problems whatsoever. On top of that, he could tap everybody in the room with relative ease, including the black belts in their 30's.

Most wrestlers active competitive years are in the age of 16- 25. You dont need steroids at that period
BJJ is all good, but again, its the lack of physical education on coaching level, that could prevent them from injuries.
How many BJJ classes have you seen that start practice with sprints, hopping, pummeling, fireman carry and etc for 20 min before they stretch?