Opinion Officer involved shooting with armed Homeless Man

[fordman7795]

“...rather take a lump..”
My man, how many concussions have you had? How many times have you been hit in the head with a steel object? Really, count them up. Nobody that has ever had TBI from actually getting bashed in the head would say something like that.

You’re telling me you’d rather take the chance on reconstructive surgery on your skull and risk a brain bleed so an insane person can go about their business destroying property randomly.

What I’m saying is this appeared to be an older, smaller and less physical able person. If bob sapp is coming at me with a crowbar he’s getting the piece. If the individual in the video is going at my wife like that, he’s getting it. But this fellow looked like someone that could be handled physically. Maybe the cop is 5’2” 120lbs? I’m one who sides with police 99.9% of the time, and in the end I’m probably ok with the end result. But there may have been another way out.

 

[deadshot138]

totally justified. i mean he showed so much restraint just shooting him 6 times. he should have reloaded and kept going

seriously, if you defend that, you are trash

Lol ok dude. Hope you don't have a badge

 

[deadshot138]

I'll put it this way. I failed a deadly force scenario because I shot a dude with a gun in his hand because he hadn't pointed it at me yet. By that logic, this was not a good shoot because the dude wasn't swinging at the officer when he was shot. My academy could have had dipshit instructors or this cop was trigger happy. I don't know.

 

[Jesus H. Sherdog]

I’m guessing the cop is within his rights to shoot but I’d have a hard time doing it. I think I’d rather take a lump from a pipe than having to live knowing I killed a man. I think the cop could quickly shoot a double and get him to the ground and cuffed.

The guy was five feet away on initial contact. Any cop worth his salt could have double legged that guy before he even thought about swinging the crowbar.

Still, you never know and when you've got weapons and you're playing with the cops you're coin tossing your life.

Legal shoot by most definitions I assume, but still something off for sure.

Hi @Jesus H. Sherdog and any other cops that wish to chime in? Should he have gone for the GSP double leg blast and GnP for the handcuff finish?

Can you please stop being so racist?

A "knife fight" is when one person has a knife and yells "Im gonna stab the fuck out of you, bitch!!!"

Knife fights have been going on for eons, and the cops should just stand there and watch one person stab someone to death, because "racism".

The same idiots saying this, would be the same idiots saying "Look at that racist cop stand there and watch that girl stab her to death !!! He loves watching black people die!!!"

Ok first things first this is not how I would have handled it. But to address the “double leg” takedown that is not a good idea ever when you have a gun in your hip. Imagine how easy it is for someone to take your gun in that scenario. Furthermore it is much more difficult to grapple with 20 lbs of equipment around your waist. You want to avoid the ground as an officer unless the arrestee is proned out first. Moving the equipment up onto the vest helps with this but then the usual suspects cry about the “militarization” of police when they see it.

Now, technically this shooting is justified because the homeless man had a deadly weapon and was advancing. But I think it wasn’t an urgent situation, the officer could have taken his time to diffuse the situation rather than pull his gun as soon as he dressed out of his vehicle. An intermediate level of force may have worked. But not everyone has the same tools at their disposal. I have access to a mental health line where they can send out this guy’s social worker while I cover fro safety. This honestly, while being time consuming, has had pretty good results as far as avoiding violence. But not everyone has that option. It’s much easier to armchair quarterback these situations than to actually handle them.

 

[bobStash]

I dunno about this one, dudes. The guy was delirious and didn't make any furtive movements towards the officer. Although he's well within the 21 foot rule and a crowbar can definitely fatally injure someone.

It all hinges on the race of the cop and the guy shot.

 

[weed]

why'd he have to murder shoot him?

the gun was necessary but that many shots?? holy shit.

 

[Starck]

Homeless dude must be white. No mention of "Black man shot by white cop" in the title.

 

[Terry Noonan]

Doesn’t look black. Non story. Only Black Lives Matter.

 

[nhbbear]

I'll put it this way. I failed a deadly force scenario because I shot a dude with a gun in his hand because he hadn't pointed it at me yet. By that logic, this was not a good shoot because the dude wasn't swinging at the officer when he was shot. My academy could have had dipshit instructors or this cop was trigger happy. I don't know.

what would your instincts have told you to do in this instance? Mine tell me to let him get a little closer and then tackle him. Or pepper spray him and retreat. Dude was sloshed and frail. It wouldn’t take too much of a hit from a crowbar to cause serious damages, but I don’t think his reaction time would be quick enough of you charged and double legged his ass. I tackled a guy swinging a fucking machete one time. I know another guy that tackled a naked woman with a hatchet. His head was on her ass as they struggled over the hatchet and he kept screaming at us to quit laughing and help him, then he yells “holy shit, she stinks she needs some feminine napkins” which only made us laugh harder. And the entire shift was there because “naked woman with an axe” goes out over the radio and you get other departments arriving. She wasn’t terrible looking either, but she was mental and clearly didn’t know how to douche or wash according to my buddy.

 

[ocfightfan]

I'll put it this way. I failed a deadly force scenario because I shot a dude with a gun in his hand because he hadn't pointed it at me yet. By that logic, this was not a good shoot because the dude wasn't swinging at the officer when he was shot. My academy could have had dipshit instructors or this cop was trigger happy. I don't know.

Was the suspect approaching you? I would say that just holding a gun is not enough, but approaching with a dangerous/deadly weapon while completely disregarding the cops orders would be. If he was just standing there with the gun pointed down or away from you then they were right. Things would go across the line either because he points the gun at someone or comes at them with it, and in particular after being told to drop it.

We can't assume these situations are simple or easy, even for the best and most well trained cops. Once the fight or flight response kicks in the adrenaline flows, heart rate goes up, tunnel vision develops, and decision making breaks down. In my opinion the best mitigation against bad outcomes is good policy based on the best data, and intensive ongoing training. But no matter what we do, if we want real enforcement of the law, then there will be ugly outcomes. People up to no good don't want to be stopped.

 

[Bargey]

That's a pry bar, not a crowbar. There's a big difference in weight. Is it going to hurt if you get hit? Yeah, but it's not going to be crowbar level of damage.
With that being said, the officer let him approach when he wasn't wielding it in a menacing manner. Once he raised the weapon, the gun was drawn. Cop was justified.

Technically justified but my God he just unloaded on a guy that was mentally ill that probably didn’t have the capacity to endanger anyone at that time. Didn’t like 10 minutes elapse? Couldn’t they have gotten back up by then? Tased him?

Anyway, this was less justified than the Makaya Bryant shooting but I guess we’ll be waiting a while for LeBing to chime in

 

[KnightTemplar]

The number of rounds on target does seem excessive. British armed police usually fire single, aimed shots, or double tap at most. Any UK copper who put seven rounds into an attacker carrying a crowbar would, at the very least, lose his ticket(authorisation to carry firearms)and probably face disciplinary action and even criminal charges.

The only exception for Brit coppers is dealing with a suicide bomber. In that scenario the AFO's are trained to head shot and keep putting rounds down until there is absolutely no possibility of the terrorist activating his IED Vest. Tragically, this once happened to a completely innocent man due to faulty intelligence. He was shot multiple times in the head at point blank range. The copper who took the shot was later cleared of all blame because he had wrongly been informed that DeMenzes was a terrorist connected to the 7/7 Bombings.

 

[deadshot138]

what would your instincts have told you to do in this instance? Mine tell me to let him get a little closer and then tackle him. Or pepper spray him and retreat. Dude was sloshed and frail. It wouldn’t take too much of a hit from a crowbar to cause serious damages, but I don’t think his reaction time would be quick enough of you charged and double legged his ass. I tackled a guy swinging a fucking machete one time. I know another guy that tackled a naked woman with a hatchet. His head was on her ass as they struggled over the hatchet and he kept screaming at us to quit laughing and help him, then he yells “holy shit, she stinks she needs some feminine napkins” which only made us laugh harder. And the entire shift was there because “naked woman with an axe” goes out over the radio and you get other departments arriving. She wasn’t terrible looking either, but she was mental and clearly didn’t know how to douche or wash according to my buddy.

Dude I'm pretty sure the basic disarming technique would have worked on him. Just grab the end of the pry bar and wrench it out of his hands. He was holding it in one hand for fucks sake! As you said he was frail and disoriented. May have not even processed that a gun was aimed at him. I know all about EDPs and mentally ill strength but I don't think this guy would have mustered much of a fight. While the shooting was technically justified, I think the cop is a pussy for doing it.

 

[Natural Order]

Imagine not being able to get three or four cops together to handle that guy without once thinking about a gun.....

Shameful really.

 

[thehighking]

Technically it was justified but he fired too many shots. One shot might have been enough to prevent an attack. If one didn't work and he continued approaching then fire more times as needed. I don't understand why he emptied half a magazine into him, that shows little regard for life imo.

 

[Perturabo]

Technically it was justified but he fired too many shots. One shot might have been enough to prevent an attack. If one didn't work and he continued approaching then fire more times as needed. I don't understand why he emptied half a magazine into him, that shows little regard for life imo.

They don’t shoot to wound.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I understand why things happened the way that they did, but this can't have been the best, or only way it could have turned out.

If there was ever a time where a shot to a non-lethal part of the body seemed possible, this looks lilke one of them to me. Are warning shots allowed?
The backup came like seconds after he killed the guy--he couldn't of evaded the guy a little while longer until backup came? The 6 or 7 guys that showed up couldn't of subdued a skinny homeless dude without killing him?

 

[thehighking]

They don’t shoot to wound.

That's an issue then.

 

[KnightTemplar]

That's an issue then.

Not really. Under the extreme stress of a life or death situation, most people struggle to hit a man sized target at close range. That's why cops are trained to shoot at the torso. The aim is to shoot to stop, and the torso is both the easiest area to hit and the likeliest to drop the perp if a wound is sustained there.

No professional LEO department/agency would train it's people to shoot a moving limb. It's asking for trouble, as there is a very good chance the round would miss it's target and maybe hit someone else. Also, the arms and legs contain major arteries. I've seen video of a guy bleeding out after Indian cops shot him in the leg. Severed his femoral artery and the poor bastard died begging for help in a pool of his own blood.

 

[TBOCSKO]

whenever there's one of these pearl clutching threads i try to imagine how would the pearl clutchers react if they were in the policeman's shoes.
surely they would have the clarity of mind and the skill to shoot the weapon out of the person's hand without hurting not even a molecule of the attacker.

This is a very good point. There is so much Monday morning quarterbacking when it comes to officer involved shootings. Cops are human and they definitely have adrenaline and fear in these situations. Bottom line, comply, and 99.99% of the time the ,”victim,” will come out unscathed.