NYT: Nurses aren't doctors

[KnightTemplar]

I never said a nurse cannot receive enough training to diagnose a broken arm.

But the poster I was responding to was making ignorant statements. As though anybody can just say "yep, broken, cast, done". That is patently ignorant.

I was also saying that a nurse is not a doctor, no matter how much people want them to be. I had friends who went to medical school and followed on from there and the training that they received and the grueling examinations - both practical and theoretical - that they had to go through would be too much for a nurse that couldn't get into medical school.

Doctors are on another level.

No argument there, at least from me. I'm glad that I never had any desire to be a doctor, since the odds of me making the grade would have been only slightly better than me winning the UFC Heavyweight Championship. With my new girlfriend, Jennifer Lawrence, watching me from the front row.:redface:

A friend of mine is a Doctor and it took her over six years to qualify. And that's the lowest rung of the ladder; she was still regarded as a total Noob by the long-serving Doctors, Consultants etc.

She told me that while obviously exaggerated for comedic effect, Scrubs is surprisingly accurate in many respects.:icon_lol:

 

[tkotom]

No argument there, at least from me. I'm glad that I never had any desire to be a doctor, since the odds of me making the grade would have been only slightly better than me winning the UFC Heavyweight Championship. With my new girlfriend, Jennifer Lawrence, watching me from the front row.:redface:

A friend of mine is a Doctor and it took her over six years to qualify. And that's the lowest rung of the ladder; she was still regarded as a total Noob by the long-serving Doctors, Consultants etc.

She told me that while obviously exaggerated for comedic effect, Scrubs is surprisingly accurate in many respects.:icon_lol:

lol yes that's how it is.. many of my law friends had it the same way.. they had one of the most difficult and prestigious degrees but they were treated like crap when they started off

doctor hours are also dreadful.. I studied a lot of genetics and anatomy at uni and the professors, who were MD's themselves hated their life.. I think most wished that they could be GP's

 

[KnightTemplar]

lol yes that's how it is.. many of my law friends had it the same way.. they had one of the most difficult and prestigious degrees but they were treated like crap when they started off

doctor hours are also dreadful.. I studied a lot of genetics and anatomy at uni and the professors, who were MD's themselves hated their life.. I think most wished that they could be GP's

Yeah, the hours that Junior MD's are expected to work are ridiculously brutal. I personally disagree with it, since if I need medical treatment, I don't want the Doctor who's providing it to be on the verge of passing out from sheer exhaustion. Unfortunately, I think it's regarded as a rite of passage; all the veterans had to do it, so they don't see why the Newbies should get an easier ride.

According to my friend, the Scrubs depiction of Surgeons as arrogant elitists with a God Complex has some basis in fact. Doctors sometimes refer to Surgeons as, "Todds".:icon_lol:

 

[tkotom]

Yeah, the hours that Junior MD's are expected to work are ridiculously brutal. I personally disagree with it, since if I need medical treatment, I don't want the Doctor who's providing it to be on the verge of passing out from sheer exhaustion. Unfortunately, I think it's regarded as a rite of passage; all the veterans had to do it, so they don't see why the Newbies should get an easier ride.

According to my friend, the Scrubs depiction of Surgeons as arrogant elitists with a God Complex has some basis in fact. Doctors sometimes refer to Surgeons as, "Todds".:icon_lol:

Completely agree.

I have never watched Scrubs but maybe I'll watch a few episodes By the way, I am not disrespecting nurses. I was just saying that people should afford everybody the according respect.

I have also heard similar things about surgeons. Do you work in the health field?

 

[Josh]

http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/nursing/dnpcert/rates.shtml

Here is the data from 2008-2012, in case anyone doubts what I said.

I think the most telling fact is that they were smart enough not to continue the study. They want no part of physician exams.

No one is suggesting that nurses should do all of a doctors work, yet you're presenting evidence to support the point that nurses shouldn't do all of doctors work. You're arguing against a point no one is making.

The problem is nurses start handing out prescription drugs without the advice of the doctor. That has happened countless times at every hospital. Seriously do they know the meaning of teamwork. It's a complete circus in hospitals at times. They have to set rules and guidelines before any prescriptions or any operations are performed. When all are in agreement move forward or do the wise thing patients ask 2 handfuls worth of doctors if they are on the same page or if each one has a different method of approaching the prognosis in a different manner. Many times doctors change nurses often because they are not on the same page.

Nurses aren't allowed to hand out prescription drugs without doctors orders. Do you have any evidence or proof to support your claim that this happens "countless times at every hospital"?

 

[LC Shepard]

As someone who actually dated a med student, hanged out with med students and nursing students and has MD relatives I can most definitely say that nurses are not MDs and are far from it.

And breaking an arm is far more complicated than you think. There can be fractures, it can be an open break, there can be damage to blood vesseles, nerves. It can happen as result of minor accident due to a persons initial issue with bone density. A nurse cant diagnose that.

Nurses are those who didnt make it as MDs.

 

[LucasWithLidOff]

Lots of butt hurt nurses ITT.

 

[New User 122121]

Yeah, the hours that Junior MD's are expected to work are ridiculously brutal. I personally disagree with it, since if I need medical treatment, I don't want the Doctor who's providing it to be on the verge of passing out from sheer exhaustion. Unfortunately, I think it's regarded as a rite of passage; all the veterans had to do it, so they don't see why the Newbies should get an easier ride.

According to my friend, the Scrubs depiction of Surgeons as arrogant elitists with a God Complex has some basis in fact. Doctors sometimes refer to Surgeons as, "Todds".:icon_lol:

You have to put in high hours because that's where you get your training. 17,000 hours is a commonly cited # of clinical training hours a doctor will get by the end of residency. Compare that to a lot of NP programs that only require 600 hours, which can be done completely online at some schools. Don't ask me how that works. Third year medical students sometimes get more hours than that in a single rotation.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Completely agree.

I have never watched Scrubs but maybe I'll watch a few episodes By the way, I am not disrespecting nurses. I was just saying that people should afford everybody the according respect.

I have also heard similar things about surgeons. Do you work in the health field?

God, no. But a friend of mine is a qualified MD. Frankly, even if I had the ability and drive to become a Doctor, which I certainly do not, the stories she's told me would put me right off. The training is exceptionally long and hard, the burn out rate is brutal, and while you get a certain amount of status and a good wage, you're not going to be a millionaire any time soon.

If you screw up someone will die and, on top of the emotional toll that takes from you, you could lose your license. Of course, you can do everything right and the patient will still die. It takes a considerable amount of mental toughness to be a successful Doctor.

Becoming a Doctor is a bit like joining Special Forces units like the Seals, Delta or the SAS; many people are attracted by the glamour and status, but very few have the ability to become part of the elite.

 

[KnightTemplar]

You have to put in high hours because that's where you get your training. 17,000 hours is a commonly cited # of clinical training hours a doctor will get by the end of residency. Compare that to a lot of NP programs that only require 600 hours, which can be done completely online at some schools. Don't ask me how that works. Third year medical students sometimes get more hours than that in a single rotation.

That makes more sense. Although I still think there should be safeguards against Doctors/Med Students pushing themselves so far it becomes dangerous to themselves or others. There was a case a few years ago in the UK where a junior Doctor had worked a ridiculously long week, tried to drive home and fell asleep at the wheel. She crashed her car into a tree and died.

 

[Josh]

As someone who actually dated a med student, hanged out with med students and nursing students and has MD relatives I can most definitely say that nurses are not MDs and are far from it.

And breaking an arm is far more complicated than you think. There can be fractures, it can be an open break, there can be damage to blood vesseles, nerves. It can happen as result of minor accident due to a persons initial issue with bone density. A nurse cant diagnose that.

Nurses are those who didnt make it as MDs.

I know quite a few nurses, and none of them ever aspired to me an MD.

 

[New User 122121]

Nurses aren't allowed to hand out prescription drugs without doctors orders. Do you have any evidence or proof to support your claim that this happens "countless times at every hospital"?

In 20 or so states, NPs can practice medicine completely independently. In most of the other states they need a physician available to answer questions, which means they will often be working solo but pay a dr a certain % to list him on the paperwork and be available for phone calls.

 

[LucasWithLidOff]

God, no. But a friend of mine is a qualified MD. Frankly, even if I had the ability and drive to become a Doctor, which I certainly do not, the stories she's told me would put me right off. The training is exceptionally long and hard, the burn out rate is brutal, and while you get a certain amount of status and a good wage, you're not going to be a millionaire any time soon.

If you screw up someone will die and, on top of the emotional toll that takes from you, you could lose your license. Of course, you can do everything right and the patient will still die. It takes a considerable amount of mental toughness to be a successful Doctor.

Becoming a Doctor is a bit like joining Special Forces units like the Seals, Delta or the SAS; many people are attracted by the glamour and status, but very few have the ability to become part of the elite.

Truth. Plus you don't get to have any fun in college either.

 

[Josh]

There are a few things happening right now that need to be addressed. There's a shortage of doctors, there's an increase in ER visits, and there's affordability issues in regards to access to medical care. An expanded scope of practice for NP's addresses these issues, and it's fact that a significant portion of a PCP's workload can be handled by an NP.

 

[New User 122121]

There are a few things happening right now that need to be addressed. There's a shortage of doctors, there's an increase in ER visits, and there's affordability issues in regards to access to medical care. An expanded scope of practice for NP's addresses these issues, and it's fact that a significant portion of a PCP's workload can be handled by an NP.

Funny thing is when you look at the distribution of NPs, they aren't going to fill mainly the rural primary care positions, even though that's what they lobby themselves as. They are going after the specialty care. Wonder why?

 

[drstrangelov]

As someone who actually dated a med student, hanged out with med students and nursing students and has MD relatives I can most definitely say that nurses are not MDs and are far from it.

And breaking an arm is far more complicated than you think. There can be fractures, it can be an open break, there can be damage to blood vesseles, nerves. It can happen as result of minor accident due to a persons initial issue with bone density. A nurse cant diagnose that.

Nurses are those who didnt make it as MDs.

I don't think anyone will argue that it takes a ton of dedication, hard work and underlying competence to become a physician. There are elements of medical practice that are carried out routinely by nurses and PAs independently. I can see the value is having physician oversight if only because you can't be sure what might walk through the door, and having that extra expertise could prove valuable. Often enough the physician just sends patients out with a referral anyway though. So, on a practical level, for routine check ups, sutures, prescribing common treatments for pinkeye and shit, having PAs and NPs handle the workload is a great idea. But, those clinics should have pretty clearly defined limits to what they can do. When I go to my doctors office I usually see a PA, no harm done.

You're views on nurses not making it as doctors is absurd though. I'm sure some do, but nursing school is far more specialized than the common premed programs, there are clinical rotations specific to nursing, etc.. Someone who can't get I to med school might become a PA, but chances are if he or she is a nurse, that was a clear and independent career choice, since the education requirement is so specialized.

 

[SleepyBoy]

I understand both sides of the argument. When it comes to health, only the most qualified should be making diagnosis, but i do think there might be some things a nurse practitioner can help with. and at the end of day, it's the customers choice.

The more interesting question, is will computers/robots be doing a lot of the medical work in the future?

As someone who has been misdiagnosed several times, including unsuccessful surgeries that had to be redone, I welcome their accuracy in diagnosing.

http://www.stuffyoushouldknow.com/podcasts/computers-replace-doctors/

 

[Josh]

Funny thing is when you look at the distribution of NPs, they aren't going to fill mainly the rural primary care positions, even though that's what they lobby themselves as. They are going after the specialty care. Wonder why?

Do you have any documentation to support that view?

 

[KnightTemplar]

Truth. Plus you don't get to have any fun in college either.

I was far too dumb for either option, but if I had to choose between becoming a Lawyer or a Doctor, I'd choose Lawyer. Not as much status, but the money's pretty good and you're not dealing with life and death decisions every working day.

 

[New User 122121]

Do you have any documentation to support that view?

I'm on a mobile device, so no, but feel free to Google for yourself. I will tell you that only around 1/2 NP are going into primary care, and the percent keeps falling each year.