North Carolina, a voting rights hellhole.

[peytonlucy]

Very interested to see how this pans out. Sure, gerrymandering has for quite some time now been used to convert clear Democratic majorities into unrepresentative Republican majorities. But I'm skepitcal of the courts being able to promulgate an alternative.

I'm not sure that there are clear Dem majorities. In general, the country is pretty evenly divided. North Carolina voted for Trump. The House of Representatives as of early 2017 were 10-3 in favor of the Repubs and both senators are Repubs. The governor is a Dem. The state legislature has been very strongly Repub until recently, did that change?

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

Inb4 he uses the UAE as his example

Man who wouldnt want to live in Saudi Arabia, Brunei, or Swaziland (with its life expectancy of 48, which Im sure is still higher than Alabama)?

Hell I might go backpacking in pristine Swaziland for vacation

 

[Limbo Pete]

Man who wouldnt want to live in Saudi Arabia, Brunei, or Swaziland (with its life expectancy of 48, which Im sure is still higher than Alabama)?

Hell I might go backpacking in pristine Swaziland for vacation

Random aside:
I once had to give a presentation on the development of the Dubai economy- without visual aid- for the better part of an hour.

...While crowded into the back of a coffee shop because our classroom building was being renovated.

UGH.

 

[Quipling]

I'm not sure that there are clear Dem majorities. In general, the country is pretty evenly divided. North Carolina voted for Trump. The House of Representatives as of early 2017 were 10-3 in favor of the Repubs and both senators are Repubs. The governor is a Dem. The state legislature has been very strongly Repub until recently, did that change?

Using the fact that North Carolina's state legislature and congressional representatives are overwhelming republican is not very convincing in a thread detailing the role that gerrymandering had in bringing that about.

Now, in NC, there aren't clear Dem majorities. But the votes were pretty evenly split, and still resulted in a 10:3 legislative advantage for republicans.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Its a bit flippant, because all political structures are democratic to some degree- even if the "voice" of the people is armed insurrection. A regime that has no support from the populace will simply not last long. And all political regimes are also essentially undemocratic- they operate through representatives who make decisions and wield power without consulting the people on every decision.

But yes, the actual universal franchise is a terrible idea.

I see your point about the balance of democratic and undemocratic elements in any regime despite their seeming to swing strongly one way or the other. I'm a big fan of Ottoman history and its one lens through which I like to think about it. The Ottoman sultan is supposed to the lone sovereign and the ultimate authority on paper but in practice the Ottoman regime relied on intermediaries that had some democratic legitimacy like the shaykhs of the quarters, villages, and guilds which were elected in many cases by their(probably mostly male) members.

But this tension is recognized by liberal democrats which is why we have representatives and undemocratic institutions like the Supreme Court. A good example is the electoral college since its structured to incentivize multi-state electoral coalitions rather than a race for the most votes(much to the dismay of many)

If you don't agree with universal franchise to what extent do you think suffrage should be limited?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Inb4 he uses the UAE as his example

If he did, so what? The Gulf monarchies do have a very high standard of living. He didn't mention anything about freedom so...

 

[Greoric]

Random aside:
I once had to give a presentation on the development of the Dubai economy- without visual aid- for the better part of an hour.

...While crowded into the back of a coffee shop because our classroom building was being renovated.

UGH.

You're such a gangster.

 

[Limbo Pete]

If he did, so what? The Gulf monarchies do have a very high standard of living. He didn't mention anything about freedom so...

If indeed he did go that route, it would beg the question of which demographics are being evaluated for standard of living. It's true that Emirate nationals have it well, but they also sometimes make up decidedly small portion of the population... the remainder of which often live in what could be described as squalorous nightmare conditions.

 

[Islam Imamate]

If indeed he did go that route, it would beg the question of which demographics are being evaluated for standard of living. It's true that Emirate nationals have it well, but they also sometimes make up decidedly small portion of the population... the remainder of which often live in what could be described as squalorous nightmare conditions.

True that but the system is designed for the nationals and it succeeds at sustaining a very high standard of living for them right?

 

[Limbo Pete]

True that but the system is designed for the nationals and it succeeds at sustaining a very high standard of living for them right?

But what about a case in which laborers might not be allowed to leave? What could we unpack from that? Dubai in particular has, apparently, had issues with seizing passports as an admission requirement and then refusing to give them back for years (if ever). Sure, the pitcher plant feeds well.
And i'm not saying that is representative of the whole joint, but imo looking at standard of living on a nationals-basis alone is inherently problematic, and ever moreso in a place like the UAE that has such a Jekyll and Hyde thing going on.
I suppose that designed for and designed to serve would need to come into play. In a purely rhetorical sense, one could find some dictatorship and argue it is designed just to serve the dictator and thus has a very high standard of living if only they are well off.

 

[peytonlucy]

Using the fact that North Carolina's state legislature and congressional representatives are overwhelming republican is not very convincing in a thread detailing the role that gerrymandering had in bringing that about.

Now, in NC, there aren't clear Dem majorities. But the votes were pretty evenly split, and still resulted in a 10:3 legislative advantage for republicans.

Using the fact that North Carolina's state legislature and congressional representatives are overwhelming republican is not very convincing in a thread detailing the role that gerrymandering had in bringing that about.

Now, in NC, there aren't clear Dem majorities. But the votes were pretty evenly split, and still resulted in a 10:3 legislative advantage for republicans.

Title of Thread: North Carolina, a voting rights hellhole. And I quoted the statement "Sure, gerrymandering has for quite some time now been used to convert clear Democratic majorities into unrepresentative Republican majorities." Then I wrote, "I'm not sure that there are clear Dem majorities..." Followed by you writing, "Now, in NC, there aren't clear Dem majorities."

Though you want to contradict me, you more emphatically stated the point than I did. (I'm not sure about whether there are clear Dem majorities but you are certain that there are not clear Dem majorities.) When one combines all of the apportionments for the various offices elected in NC, the Repubs would be hard pressed to create numerical superiority at so many levels if there were a Dem majority. The Repubs would have to gerrymander 120 state house districts and 50 state senate districts and 13 US congressional districts in a pretty amazing way to "turn clear Democratic majorities into unrepresentative Republican majorities." That is my point, which you hold to more strongly than I do.

 

[Diamond Jim]

That seems insane.

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

That seems insane.

And this is fascism. The GOP are so unpopular, that they have to rig elections this bad in order to advance their unpopular agendas.

 

[Denter]

I see your point about the balance of democratic and undemocratic elements in any regime despite their seeming to swing strongly one way or the other. I'm a big fan of Ottoman history and its one lens through which I like to think about it. The Ottoman sultan is supposed to the lone sovereign and the ultimate authority on paper but in practice the Ottoman regime relied on intermediaries that had some democratic legitimacy like the shaykhs of the quarters, villages, and guilds which were elected in many cases by their(probably mostly male) members.

But this tension is recognized by liberal democrats which is why we have representatives and undemocratic institutions like the Supreme Court. A good example is the electoral college since its structured to incentivize multi-state electoral coalitions rather than a race for the most votes(much to the dismay of many)

If you don't agree with universal franchise to what extent do you think suffrage should be limited?

Something like the Electors voting for the Holy Roman Emperor, while the Electors themselves could be quite an eclectic mix (some directly elected, some hereditary, some theocratic, etc.)

 

[Denter]

And this is fascism. The GOP are so unpopular, that they have to rig elections this bad in order to advance their unpopular agendas.

I wish it were fascism, but its just fake corporate "conservatism".

 

[Ice That Jaw]

What does gerrymandering have to do with voting rights? Are these snowflakes upset that they don't live a district that votes the way they do?

 

[Islam Imamate]

What does gerrymandering have to do with voting rights? Are these snowflakes upset that they don't live a district that votes the way they do?

If you honestly don't know there's little point in explaining it to you at this point. Maybe read a book sometime and you'll be able to figure things like this out from time to time.

 

[Fawlty]

I wish it were fascism, but its just fake corporate "conservatism".

Strange preference, but it's one you've stuck to. Do you think there's some golden fascism that we haven't found yet that will really work, or do you just really want most people to suffer brutally?

 

[Deleted member 457759]

As long as it keeps people like HomerThompson from ruling, I'm all for it.

 

[HomerThompson]

As long as it keeps people like HomerThompson from ruling, I'm all for it.