Noob Keylock question

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Diligent, Oct 27, 2005.

  1. Diligent

    Diligent Blue Belt

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    Hey, quick question about the keylock...

    I have yet to have anyone show me the keylock personally, but I have several Pride/UFC's where it has been done, so I have a general idea of how it is done. My question is, do you HAVE to be in sidemount to get the keylock, or can it be done while being in someone's guard??? It seems like every time I've seen it executed (either in a live match or in an instruction), everyone does it while in sidemount. Although I did see Ron Waterman do it on Valentijn Overeem while he was in half guard...

    I'd ask my BJJ instructor, but I'll be out of town this weekend and won't be able to make it to Saturday's class...enlighten me.
     
  2. stephensharp

    stephensharp Brown Belt

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    What's the point of the guard?

    To keep a person off you, and control them with your legs.

    How do you submit someone?

    Use your strength against their weak point.

    How do you submit someone using only your arms when they are resisiting with their legs, back, hips, and arm?

    You don't.

    People will try to meathead moves like that, but if you're doing the keylock right, you should be on the side or at least the 1/2, get the arms positioned, and be using your body to move the arm.

    "Position before submission" isn't just a catchy rhyme.
     
  3. Terrier

    Terrier Brown Belt

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    You're unlikly to get it in someones guard (half or especially full) unless they're very new - same goes for almost any sub.

    Basically you can look from it from mount/sidemout and north south.
     
  4. Diligent

    Diligent Blue Belt

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    OK. Thanks guys. :D
     
  5. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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  6. stephensharp

    stephensharp Brown Belt

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  7. Terrier

    Terrier Brown Belt

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    I always get mixed up - I thought a keylock was an americana not a kimura?

    Meh anyway same applys except you can get it when someone's in your guard
     
  8. stephensharp

    stephensharp Brown Belt

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    It is. b0b went loopy and just ignored dude's whole post, posting a link to a kimura from guard where the guy was asking about Americana from inside guard.

    Silly b0b.
     
  9. Moving Shadow

    Moving Shadow You are entering my dark place

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    urgh i get confused with what people are talking about here

    i thought the keylock is the 'straight' armbar

    kimura is with their hand towards the hip

    americana is with the hand towards the head
     
  10. Diligent

    Diligent Blue Belt

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  11. Adino

    Adino Purple Belt

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    I dont think you have to be in side mount. You can do it from many of the same positions as a Kimura, like from the bottom and such.
     
  12. Commissar

    Commissar Gold Belt

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    I do think you should probably learn moves from your instructor, as opposed to an internet forum.
     
  13. Diligent

    Diligent Blue Belt

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    So do I...
     
  14. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    I misread the apart about being IN someone's guard, my bad.

    I always thought a kimura WAS a keylock, just reversed. Semantics I guess.
     
  15. SmashiusClay

    SmashiusClay Avatar of Cyttorak

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    Perfect you've learned two things today.

    The keylock/americana/figure four can be done from side mount, half mount, north south, scarf hold or even full mount. If you are significantly stronger than your opponent then you can even do it from inside their guard (One of my old sparring partners was a weightlifter who competed at the commonwealth games and he was always doing stuff like that which I felt was a bit much as he was also better technically than me).
     
  16. stephensharp

    stephensharp Brown Belt

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    See, that's what I (and a few others) call a meathead move. Doing the keylock right, you wanna pin the shoulder you're torquing,a nd move the elbow towards the waist. If you wanna throw all that positional and technical stuff out the window, you can just wrench somebodies arm, but it's not really a keylock. If it works, it works, but against someone that's good, they're gonna defend that, since you don't have position or leverage, just strength.

    As for the names, "keylock" refers to your pulling arm "keying the lock" made by your hand locked on the wrist of his bent arm. So, the keylock is the figure four armbar, bent armlock, ude garame, Americana, turkey bar... Kimura is called Kimura because it's the specific technique Masahiko Kimura used to beat Helio Gracie:

    [​IMG]

    ...reportedly breaking his arm. It's implied in writing about the match that Helio wasn't familiar with the move, and thus named it in Kimura's honor. In Judo, it's still just the ude garame (arm wrap), but it's also called the reverse figure four, reverse keylock, chickenwing, and whatever.

    It doesn't REALLY matter, except when you're specifically asking in this medium how to do it, as people need to be able to picture it (which is why it's better to learn it in person)... I've heard arguments about each of those different names really beign a different thing, but more and more, I've found people resorting to a single name for all of them (Bas calls it all figure four, in Judo it's ALWAYS just been ude garame), but then I run into new names all the time, too. I just realized the other night that at my new school, they were calling it the "paint brush", whereas I'd thought they were talking about the cow's hand when they were saying that.

    People play fast and loose with the names of BJJ techniques... At least we're not trying to discuss Eddie Bravo moves.

    ps- Notice Kimura is in modified North-South, hooking his leg to keep Helio where he's at.

    Notice also the huge, shit eating grin on Kimura's face... Judo, "the gentle way" my ass...
     
  17. SmashiusClay

    SmashiusClay Avatar of Cyttorak

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    lol. after the first time I got thrown with a standing kata guruma (firemans carry) I pretty much decided that the name was a joke.
     
  18. StevieSparkZ

    StevieSparkZ Green Belt

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    Wasn't it Jiu Jitsu that meant "gentle way"?
     
  19. stephensharp

    stephensharp Brown Belt

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    jitsu- art
    do- way

    ju- gentle
     
  20. VampireMonk

    VampireMonk Black Belt

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    yeah I wouldn't do the key lock from inside the guard,
    but if I have the guard, I'd be very concerned about it.

    I've seen guys submitted by it many times.
     

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