No gi takedowns: what do I do when they won't wrestle?

[The Colonel]

So at our academy we tend to focus more than other schools on takedowns, but still, as we all know a lot of guys who get into bjj never wrestled. I didn't wrestle, but I'm a purple belt in jiu-jitsu, have been doing this for a long time, and have always enjoyed working stand up more than most people.

Our gym has a few guys that have wrestled and these guys will come out and hand fight with me, pummel, drag, shoot etc. In other words wrestle me. Sometimes I take them down, more often than not if they wrestled seriously in highschool and/or college they get me, but damnit I fight it out with them. I'm not going to make it easy.

Then there are the guys that don't wrestle with me. If I walk towards them they back up. They circle away and back up. If I try and get a grip they act like it is a game of tag. If I ever manage to get a leg they hop away, always towards the edge of the mat or other people. If I ever get the beginnings of a clinch they back out of it, push off my chest, and try to break the clinch and back away. Not attack me, get their own clinch, pummel, whatever.

Its f-ing maddening!!! Sometimes I am literally just stalking these people down, walking after them, and they just keep backing away, circling away. Eventually they about to bump into two other people wrestling, so I just stop, look at them, and they timidly walk back towards me and towards our "space". Then this all begins again.

Sometimes I do manage to take them down by fighting like a goddamn madman to get double underhooks or tie up their head to keep them in place long enough. Shooting from the outside just doesn't work for me since they keep backing up, plus what am I going to do? Double leg them across the room into other people?

I sort of think of this like the equivalent of judo guys complaining about bjj guys stiff-arming and sinking their hips low--its an overly defensive posture. Then again I can also just be whining and not a good enough wrestler. It just feels like a lot of guys aren't trying to take me down, or even get better at their stand up, they are trying to not get taken down. I relish the moments when I get someone who actually comes at me. Put me on my ass, I don't care, but at least wrestle with me!

 

[Gambledub]

I wish I could help, I hate this too.

Perhaps try donkey guard?

 

[Kaffe]

I go get some water and tell them to let me know when they want to start grappling. If they don't change up their act, I make a point of avoiding training with them.

I'm past the phase of being willing to run Benny Hill style after people on (and sometimes off!) a mat with several other people trying to get their grapple on.

 

[GKY]

If I have the mat space I get ultra aggressive with snap downs combined with foot sweep attempts. When they start pulling away I shoot a double. Being that aggressive has a cost since I'm more exposed but I don't mind since at least I'm trying. If they truly won't engage at all I'll ask them what their doing or just pull seated guard since I don't wanna waste time.

 

[Badger67]

^^^ What GKY said

 

[jack36767]

I deal with this all the time

The short answer is.. be patient and practice stalking them in your stance, don't get frustrated, 90% of the time if you keep your composure, and keep stalking them which puts the pressure in them, which will lead to them taking a crappy shot or trying something stupid

But honestly, if they're doing that every time, especially when you are starting on the feet or just wrestling, especially going against another jiu-jitsu guy and not someone like me who came from wrestling. They're simply at the end of the day cowards and scared of getting better or outside their comfort zone. It's the same as the person who in training refuses to engage or actually try to pass, the ones who dance then try to just run through you and run away if they can't.

And in my experience, these people are the idiots who talk the most shit about wrestling and how "untechnical" and "brutish" wrestling is.. mainly because they are scared of it. Especially because when someone who does know what they're doing finally gets ahold of them, they go for a ride

TLDR:there's nothing you can do but not get frustrated and keep getting yourself better

 

[rmongler]

The kneetap is money against guys who are always backing up. Drive in on side side, stick your other arm down, and they will put themselves in position to be tripped up as they pump their legs going backwards (Cruz, Edgar, and Fedor are all big on this).

The other thing is to get really good at running the pipe on a single leg. They try to hop out of bounds, but you're just pulling them right back (Maia and GSP are both big on this).

 

[Fla graplr]

One strategy my coach has me do for guys like that is stand strait up from the beginning of the match and hide the fact I wrestled. But still stagger a stance so you know they will attack and shoot your front leg. Keep your lead hand (same side as you front staggered leg) lazily near your leg with your palm up to catch a guillotine and cross face or push away when shot on and then prepare to sprawl. So basically become a secret defensive wrestler and invite the take down.if you do this, practice a great sprawl.

 

[jack36767]

One strategy my coach has me do for guys like that is stand strait up from the beginning of the match and hide the fact I wrestled. But still stagger a stance so you know they will attack and shoot your front leg. Keep your lead hand (same side as you front staggered leg) lazily near your leg with your palm up to catch a guillotine and cross face or push away when shot on and then prepare to sprawl. So basically become a secret defensive wrestler and invite the take down.if you do this, practice a great sprawl.

Yup this is why most wrestling coaches prefer teaching not to change lead legs. Because it's much easier to get good at defending that one side really wean be as good on both sides

 

[McA]

Let me repeat back what you said, Mr. Wayne. Your grappling opponents are intimidated, even scared of you, especially if you've knocked out some of their friends with batarangs beforehand. All you want is a good workout, maybe information to stop the next supervillain attack, and they are practically fainting before you've had a chance to beat them.

Your have peers in the gym, such as Superman and Wonderwoman, but you feel like they are humoring you when you practice and they could snap your spine easily. Plus, their flying abilities makes it hard to get single leg takedowns.

A few suggestions: maybe don't wear the cowl and utility belt to workouts. Maybe invite opponents to spar with you, instead of appearing out of the shadows while they are working, and then demanding they fight you. If all else fails, ask somebody like Oliver Queen how he handles situations like these - he's a nice guy that doesn't intimidate anyone.

 

[davou]

I vote that you just keep driving at them. If they want to back into other people, they will be the ones who start feeling stupid, probably even get yelled at.

 

[wordspeaker]

Maintain head to head contact and good posture and force the issue by stalking them?

 

[Aesopian]

Stay patient, stay in good stance, stalk them, slit their tires in the parking lot.

 

[jack36767]

Stay patient, stay in good stance, stalk them, slit their tires in the parking lot.

I prefer putting sugar in the gas tank.. much less traceable

 

[These Two Hands]

Blast double, Jordan Burroughs style. I'm not aiming at the man in front of me, but at the far wall behind him. Or the car park.

Or, start fucking around and grabbing at their arm or leg to provoke the response you need to set something up and then put them down. Like, for example, if I can get one underhook I might immediately start blatantly and obviously grabbing for the opposite leg so that they step back on that leg, then I hip toss them.

All that being said, I'm not as experienced as you this is just stuff I have found works for me. Where I train we usually roll from standing (we have a lot of mat space) and there are a few people that play that patty-cake bullshit. I hate it. Also, being a pesadissimo I feel it's quite crucial to me to secure the TD and put the other guy down HARD as far as comps go. That reminds me, I need to check the new IBJJF rules that came out recently and find out if I am still allowed to hit belly-to-belly suplays... Get them off the belt grab in the gi, or just a big old bearhug in nogi and BAM motherfucker, I got top posish. They were legal but I'm not sure if that's changed or not now.

 

[Russky]

When you fight people with lesser skills and confidence, smaller and weaker, you have to adjust to that and play more defensive game. Instead of attacking let them attack, take grip and take you down. When they get more confident fighting you only then you can start carefully attacking and taking them down.

If I take a beginner and smash him that won't gain me anything in my practice. Mutual welfare and benefit.

 

[Hello There Friend]

I just go with the flow. Or usually, they'll just go their knee and I'll just lock up with them while standing (I'm 5'3 and weigh less then 130 lbs, so I'm easily the smallest person at my gym). They'll try to sweep me or double/single leg me from there, so it's a good position for me to work my sprawls and scrambles, If I want to work wrestling, I'll roll with this big dude at my gym who is the wresting coach for the kids class at the gym. Though he's more skilled and bigger then me so I struggle with him, it's good practice for me, as I'm more likely to get into it on the streets with a guy his size (he's like 5'10, 230 lbs) then someone my size.

 

[aus101]

Just follow them a few steps past the centre of where you are rolling. Keep resetting back in the middle of the space whenever they continue to flee. It's hardly considerate to everyone else to have to play tip across the mat. Again, imagine you are taking the centre of the octagon until they come into shooting range. Practise shots you can do from range too (low singles and ankle picks).

If all else fails ask if you can work from inferior standing positions like they start with double unders etc. Feel free to discuss what you are trying to work on with your partner, you are trying to practise your techniques not compete with them and they might need to be reminded of that.

 

[Calibur]

Happens to me all the time.

I'm an asshole so I just blast through them no matter who gets in the way. Once your partner understands you're not going to reset due to space, they have to address you.

That said, I've had the most success spending my stand up time teaching people who don't know the basics of wrestling how to do it. If all they do is back up, I teach them how to send drag or single leg and let them get it live. It sounds like you gave a gym culture issue and the best way to fix it is by demonstrating the behavior you want to see and letting them execute it while not contradicting the instructor.

Choose a couple of guys you have decent rapport with and go over hand fighting or foot work basics. Then let them practice without countering. Once they understand that or acting stand up isn't hopeful you might get able to breed better training partners.

 

[The Colonel]

Wow I'm really glad that I'm not the only guy this happens to. I've been having most luck with snapping their head down, going for front headlocks or a cow catcher (fast becoming my go to move, I cow catch damn near everyone) but this isn't as easy with guys that are taller than me and/or bigger than me. I also pummel for double underhooks like a f-ing madman to keep them in place. When they inevitably try and walk away I hit a duck under/slide by and take down that I usually get. I've really been enjoying trying to work more Greco type takedowns into my stand up.

I always try to teach guys, especially ones that not only didn't wrestle but that don't eagerly study it like I do, some basics. Some people are getting better, albeit slowly. I think a big part of their problem is just "going for it." Sometimes you get sprawled out on or guillotined. So instead they take this overly cautious approach to take downs. I think a big part of stand up wrestling is crossing that divide where you worry that you may get countered. So what if you do? You'll get a good guillotine defense and learn to chain wrestle.

I wish I had a good blast double, unfortunately I don't. Something I should maybe work on. Thanks for all the advice.