No gi judo more effective in a cage than a ring?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by The Sickness, Jul 6, 2005.

  1. The Sickness

    The Sickness Ichizoku

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    Ok, here's my case. Karo has been met with a good deal of success in the UFC. He has used his judo skills to the fullest and is fast positioning himself as a contender. Pride on the other hand has far more Judoka competing, and far more decorated Judoka at that. Yoshida being the most prominant, with Nastula recently added to that mix. Yet it seems that they have been met with far less success than Karo has here. I know it is a bit unfair to compare one guy with a whole roster in another organization, but let's discuss some of the factors that contribute to Karo's success. I believe that first and foremost the cage allows you to control the hips of an opponent far better than a ring does. With no gi involved, this is very important. Discuss...
     
  2. Matt Thornton

    Matt Thornton Amateur Fighter

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    Well you've also gotta look at who Karo's training with, and who Pride's judoka are training with.

    To anyone who reads my posts, it's no mystery that I'm grossly uninformed when it comes to Pride. I love Pride, but I only have so much money, and so I usually end up buying the UFC PPVs.

    But what I know about Karo is that while he's an amazing Judo player, he also trains with some pretty legendary guys. He was training with "Judo" Gene LeBell for a while, who knows quite a bit about Judo without a gi. And, he trains with Gokor Chivichyan, who I believe does SAMBO. Either way, both these guys are legendary grapplers. In Pride, you have these really great Judoka, but who are they training with?

    Think of it this way. I'm not sure what degree black belt Chuck Liddell is in Kempo. But we can be rest assured, there are black belts of a much higher level than Chuck in Kempo. However, Chuck does much better in UFC than those guys would. Why? Because Chuck trains in Kickboxing, Wrestling, and BJJ, of course, but also, because he alters Kempo to work for him in MMA.

    While Karo is an awesome Judo player to begin with, he also figures out what works for him and what doesn't in a no gi situation, and he alters Judo to work for him. Not saying Yoshida and Nastula don't do that, but it just happens to be Karo's specialty.

    Here's another thing, may be less significant, but just another thought. UFC is dominated by Americans, with a few Canadians, and every once in a while, someone from another country comes. While Judo is fairly popular in the USA, it is a hundred times more popular in Japan. Judo is to Japan what wrestling is to America. So the Japanese, I'm assuming, are pretty good at Judo. Not only that, but Judo is a pretty popular international game. Isn't Fedor a Judo player?

    While wrestling is really popular in other countries, like Russia and Iran, the United States is still one of the biggest countries for wrestling. So a lot of the MMA fighters in UFC have a wrestling background. In a lot of other countries, where wrestling isn't as popular, and BJJ is still growing, Judo is a viable option. So in Pride, where fighters from all around the world come, there's a greater chance that the fighters have some Judo experience.
     
  3. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

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    I think Karo is just far more capable off applying his judo to MMA. Much like Mir mightn't be the greatest bjjer ever but is far better at applying to MMA than guys like Nino & Saulo
     
  4. mma_fighter

    mma_fighter White Belt

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    Karo a pupil of Gokor Chivichyan has many skills including Hayastan Jujitsu plus he trains with Randy. I think he wants to set himself apart from other fighters to be known as a Judo Guy!
     
  5. Timbaland

    Timbaland Black Belt

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    Well Karo has also been training no gi for several years. I'm not too sure about Nastula and Yoshida. Since they didn't get into MMA until recently I assume that they've been training no gi judo for a lot less time than Karo. I would expect it takes some time to translate your best judo moves from gi to no gi.
     
  6. azjudoboxer**

    azjudoboxer** Banned Banned

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    Yes, keep in mind Karo has been no gi a logn time. Plus he trains with Lebell/Gokor, so he does Judo/Sambo/submission wrestling. He's quite unique
     
  7. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

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    14 months later I'd like to add that I think this is due to training in Hayastan. Having trained with some from there in the mean time, I don't think there is a gym that has built up a greater collective knowledge of no gi judo than Hayastan. At top levels of international competition the differences that separate people are skill (ability to apply technique) & attributes , what separates Karo's ability to apply judo from others in MMA is his knowledge advantage.
     
  8. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    Me thinks that you gots it.

    Good judo will work well vs wrestling and bjj grapling and less so vs judo type. Wrestling will work well vs non wreslters and same with bjj. Very generally but I believe it to be true as well somewhat. Good post.

    Stick Nak in ufc and we'll see plenty judo throws.
     
  9. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    I don't see him applying judo any better than others. He is lighter so we will see sweeter throws. Just like tournies.

    Except he is throwing more with less judo type experience as well. We knew that Tak wasn't goin to throw Kikuta or Yosh throw Ogawa. Or Nak throw Randleman...errrr.
     
  10. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    I have or seen no evidence of gi meanng anything except for instance no collar chokes.
     
  11. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    I say better for judo in ring because there would be eventually more 'middle' fighting.

    Take away grabbing ropes or cage and we see 'TWICE' as many throws. At least.

    I wonder, since you throw in mma, has the ropes or fence stopped you in any way?

    I have grappled many mmaers and thrown clean on mats but in the ring/cage I wonder if that would hold back somewhat due to the 'wall' preventing their legs from going over?

    And subtracts many counters as well.

    Keep in mind that Karo has had an 'amateur' career.

    Pavel, no. Yosh, no. Nak, no. Yoon, no. Tak, no. Fighting top off the bat.

    Lombard, yes and has a close fight with Gono. Of which I would have rather been Lombard. Akiyama, kinda, but is filtered and hasn't slouched vs top 'stylists'.

    You have done mma with judo. How much judo and how well? I insist you talk. I have a Black belt here.:icon_lol:
     
  12. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    That is only evidence to me that it doesn't mean shit.:D
     
  13. Timbaland

    Timbaland Black Belt

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    Wearing a gi does change how you set up throws and the such. In judo, you can grip someone's collar or their shoulder, the trap area, etc. since they're wearing a gi. You cannot grip this same way no gi. That wass the point being made. The judokas will have to modify their throws for mma. Some people adapt very well, otehrs do not.
     
  14. Jimmy Cerra

    Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

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    Many throws are easier no-gi since you are closer. Especially koshiwaza in my experience.
     
  15. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    Well, Fedor is the prime example of a successful judo guy, and he's in Pride. Almost all of his takedowns are judo throws (in fact I don't remember seeing him go for a single leg or double leg in any of his fights), though he sets them up with strikes.

    Some throws work without the gi, but you have to practice differently. The jacket gives an incredibly strong grip and control, and if you learn to do your throws that way you'll have to modify them for no-gi. Some judo clubs are starting to practice both gi and no-gi (you need both for self defense ... at least up north where people wear jackets nine months of the year), and there's getting to be interest in no-gi judo competition.
     
  16. Bubble Boy

    Bubble Boy Black Belt

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    If it were me, I'd rather fight in a cage than a ring. As a judo fighter that is.
    It seems that Karo likes to put his opponents back up against the cage, wait for them to begin to push out, and then go for his throws, which often take him from one side of the cage to the other.

    I can't tell you how many times I've watched the judo guys in Pride get a beautiful throw that ends up landing the opponent in the ropes, and that screws up the transitional part of judo...the transition that coulda' (woulda', shoulda') led to a submission attempt or dominate position.
    I specifically remember Yoshida getting Silva down, into the ropes, and then fighting with the ropes for about 10 seconds trying to get into a good position...
    And Nastula against Alexander E., after Nastula got the takedown, and was going for his arm bar and other stuff...well, he was tangled up in the ropes the whole time.

    I suppose anyone could get tangled in the ropes, but since I focus on judo guys, I notice the problems it gives them more.
     

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