Nicklas B

[KiraKira]

GSP was never knocked out cold and neither was Wanderlei before his career went anywhere (he was TKOd by Belfort, but was not out cold like Niklas was; take a look at his career trajectory after he did go out cold, though).

In addition, I said "traditionally" and you appear to have demonstrated my point. Out of all of the fighters in recorded history that were knocked out cold in a contest, you are only able to name two that had somewhat of a decent career thereafter.

Pro-tip, be cognizant of the argument being made before attempting to deconstruct it. On another note, it is hardly "impossible" to establish such a trend. For example, one could note a fighter's respective trajectory and fighting capacity, and if that fighter experiences an "out-cold-event" you could then monitor their activities thereafter and make further predictions and analyses.

Renan Barao was knocked out cold vs Claudemir Souza, Cain by JDS, Mark Hunt by Manhofe and JDS, Bensson Henderson was KO'd as an amature, Machida fought for two titels after the second Shogun fight, Mirco by Randelaman, Shinya Aoki has been out numuerous times and still has one of the best resumes at lightweight...i think its safe to say that theres more than a "few" fighters who have gone one to have a stellar career after being put to sleep.

 

[Inverse]

Renan Barao was knocked out cold vs Claudemir Souza, Cain by JDS, Mark Hunt by Manhofe and JDS, Bensson Henderson was KO'd as an amature, Machida fought for two titels after the second Shogun fight, Mirco by Randelaman, Shinya Aoki has been out numuerous times and still has one of the best resumes at lightweight...i think its safe to say that theres more than a "few" fighters who have gone one to have a stellar career after being put to sleep.

Cain was already champ when he got knocked out,

 

[0hm]

Renan Barao was knocked out cold vs Claudemir Souza, Cain by JDS, Mark Hunt by Manhofe and JDS, Bensson Henderson was KO'd as an amature, Machida fought for two titels after the second Shogun fight, Mirco by Randelaman, Shinya Aoki has been out numuerous times and still has one of the best resumes at lightweight...i think its safe to say that theres more than a "few" fighters who have gone one to have a stellar career after being put to sleep.

Renan Barao did not appear to be out cold in that fight, Mark Hunt hasn't had a stellar career, Benson was quite clearly not "out cold," Aoki's career is "good" but far from stellar.

Cain and Cro Cop are terrific additions to the contrary. Machida has done well since the KO, but not stellar (decent addition though).

Also worth noting that we are still dealing with an incredible minority of fighters here.

 

[flanellograf]

Just out of curiosity, who are these fighters that have done well after getting knocked out cold like Niklas did yesterday? Sincerely asking (keep in mind I have already accepted that a fighter could have a career after such an event, just - probably - not a stellar one).

Depends on your definition of stellar and heavy, but Hunt, Rampage, Overeem, Nelson, Bisping, Machida, Cub Swanson, Lawler, GSP.

Thing is, that usually heavy knockouts like that coincide with the fighter not being that good to begin with, or being at the tail end of his career. And/or a result of too many gym wars (most of the damage is accrued in the gym anyway). It happening early on in your career probably shouldn't be a big deal. I guess we will see.

 

[KiraKira]

Renan Barao did not appear to be out cold in that fight, Mark Hunt hasn't had a stellar career, Benson was quite clearly not "out cold," Aoki's career is "good" but far from stellar.

Cain and Cro Cop are terrific additions to the contrary. Machida has done well since the KO, but not stellar (decent addition though).

Also worth noting that we are still dealing with an incredible minority of fighters here.

I think we have rather contradictory views of what is considerd a "stellar" career reading your coments one Hunt and Aoki aswell as what is considerd being out cold but for the sake of argument you can add Jacare (has been out a couple of times), Shogun (Ko'd both in training beffore pride run) and Werdum (Fighting for a title after JDS uppercut from hell) to your list.

Theres is of course guys like Cub Swanson and Chad Mendez but i gues you wouldnt considerd either to have been completely out.

 

[XhamsterXI]

Renan Barao was knocked out cold vs Claudemir Souza, Cain by JDS, Mark Hunt by Manhofe and JDS, Bensson Henderson was KO'd as an amature, Machida fought for two titels after the second Shogun fight, Mirco by Randelaman, Shinya Aoki has been out numuerous times and still has one of the best resumes at lightweight...i think its safe to say that theres more than a "few" fighters who have gone one to have a stellar career after being put to sleep.

Yet people still think once Mcgoat loses he will quickly fade into MMA obscurity

 

[KiraKira]

Yet people still think once Mcgoat loses he will quickly fade into MMA obscurity

That's sherdog for you, one lose and you are officially considerd a can

 

[Minnja]

Reminds me of

 

[5Rounder]

GSP was never knocked out cold and neither was Wanderlei before his career went anywhere (he was TKOd by Belfort, but was not out cold like Niklas was; take a look at his career trajectory after he did go out cold, though).

In addition, I said "traditionally" and you appear to have demonstrated my point. Out of all of the fighters in recorded history that were knocked out cold in a contest, you are only able to name two that had somewhat of a decent career thereafter.

Pro-tip, be cognizant of the argument being made before attempting to deconstruct it. On another note, it is hardly "impossible" to establish such a trend. For example, one could note a fighter's respective trajectory and fighting capacity, and if that fighter experiences an "out-cold-event" you could then monitor their activities thereafter and make further predictions and analyses.

I disagree that GSP and Wanderlei didn't experience an 'out-cold-event' in their fights against Serra and Vitor. Further, I'm not sure that that's even a thing amenable to being measured or that it would necessarily matter viz. a TKO that's not an 'out-cold-event'. It does, however, seem like a useful proposition for disregarding evidence that conflicts with your thesis. A fighter's career doesn't go downhill after being KTFO'd? Well, it wasn't an 'out-cold-event', despite that being a totally made up term that can't be objectively measured. Also, I'm not sure why I bear the burden of empirically establishing that your trend doesn't exist. You're the one who made a blanket claim unsupported by evidence.

Lastly, a predictive model based on speculation is going to give significantly less valid results than one supported by evidence. Especially one that, at most, can only establish correlation. And that's my point, you're never going to be able to prove that the cause of a fighter's decline was an 'out-cold-event'.

 

[0hm]

Depends on your definition of stellar and heavy, but Hunt, Rampage, Overeem, Nelson, Bisping, Machida, Cub Swanson, Lawler, GSP.

Thing is, that usually heavy knockouts like that coincide with the fighter not being that good to begin with, or being at the tail end of his career. And/or a result of too many gym wars (most of the damage is accrued in the gym anyway). It happening early on in your career probably shouldn't be a big deal. I guess we will see.

Standard definition of the term works (relating to the stars; exceptional/outstanding): Hunt has not had a stellar career (thus far); Rampage did well thereafter (noted); Overeem is questionable; Nelson did okay (not stellar); Bisping has yet to earn even a title shot in the UFC; Machida has been noted; Cub Swanson was never out cold and neither was GSP; Lawler may have been out cold and he is on his way to a stellar career, indeed.

The latter part of your post is very telling of what I am talking about.

 

[5Rounder]

Renan Barao did not appear to be out cold in that fight, Mark Hunt hasn't had a stellar career, Benson was quite clearly not "out cold," Aoki's career is "good" but far from stellar.

Cain and Cro Cop are terrific additions to the contrary. Machida has done well since the KO, but not stellar (decent addition though).

Also worth noting that we are still dealing with an incredible minority of fighters here.

Lolz. Keep shifting the goalposts on your shitty argument. I should have seen this side of the coin coming too - the 'he didn't have stellar career' argument. As though that's something that you get to decide.

 

[0hm]

I think we have rather contradictory views of what is considerd a "stellar" career reading your coments one Hunt and Aoki aswell as what is considerd being out cold but for the sake of argument you can add Jacare (has been out a couple of times), Shogun (Ko'd both in training beffore pride run) and Werdum (Fighting for a title after JDS uppercut from hell) to your list.

Theres is of course guys like Cub Swanson and Chad Mendez but i gues you wouldnt considerd either to have been completely out.

Jacare is well on his way to a stellar career and he is a worthwhile addition.

Do you have any evidence, by chance for the Shogun comment?

Werdum is certainly on his way as well.

Still discussing an incredible minority here.

 

[0hm]

I disagree that GSP and Wanderlei didn't experience an 'out-cold-event' in their fights against Serra and Vitor. Further, I'm not sure that that's even a thing amenable to being measured or that it would necessarily matter viz. a TKO that's not an 'out-cold-event'. It does, however, seem like a useful proposition for disregarding evidence that conflicts with your thesis. A fighter's career doesn't go downhill after being KTFO'd? Well, it wasn't an 'out-cold-event', despite that being a totally made up term that can't be objectively measured. Also, I'm not sure why I bear the burden of empirically establishing that your trend doesn't exist. You're the one who made a blanket claim unsupported by evidence.

Lastly, a predictive model based on speculation is going to give significantly less valid results than one supported by evidence. Especially one that, at most, can only establish correlation. And that's my point, you're never going to be able to prove that the cause of a fighter's decline was an 'out-cold-event'.

GSP was quite clearly never out cold in his fight with Serra; Wanderlei is questionable, indeed. An "out-cold event" clearly refers to something like Niklas experienced as opposed to something like BJ Penn in the second Hughes fight (you know what it refers to, don't play naive).

If anything, the evidence appears to support my claim. Individuals that experience an "out-cold event" appear to rarely experience strong careers in the fight game (as evidenced by the lack of their presence at the top of the sport). Is this a rule? No, much like the rest of the universe, it is likely a question of probability. If Fighter A has a propensity to fall when hit with a shot that exceeds X amount of force whereas Fighter B is able to press on after receiving such a shot, it may be expected that Fighter B will experience greater success in his career relative to Fighter A.

Your final point seems axiomatic. You cannot really prove anything in this world (apart from semantically in mathematics). You can, however, provide support for hypotheses; and my hypothesis appears to have a great deal of support as of now.

 

[0hm]

Lolz. Keep shifting the goalposts on your shitty argument. I should have seen this side of the coin coming too - the 'he didn't have stellar career' argument. As though that's something that you get to decide.

Never moved the goalposts (at all). I asked a question of the forum, and people provided their evidence to the contrary; some of them were good and some of them were not (I noted those that pointed to the contrary that fit the "out cold" criterion).

Would you argue that Aoki and Hunt have had stellar MMA careers to this point? I certainly would not, but am interested in opposing viewpoints.

 

[RedRocket44]

LOL did you hear him come up while Hardy talked to Wilkinson? He said "that was fucked up man" as if it was a bad stoppage or something lolololo. You can't get knocked out much harder than that.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the half a dozen punches he threw after he was out from the first punch.

I don't think the ref did a bad job, he just got KOed with the first punch and dude threw some pretty fast leather before the ref could get there.

Still wasn't the right way to handle it though.

 

[5Rounder]

GSP was quite clearly never out cold in his fight with Serra; Wanderlei is questionable, indeed. An "out-cold event" clearly refers to something like Niklas experienced as opposed to something like BJ Penn in the second Hughes fight (you know what it refers to, don't play naive).

If anything, the evidence appears to support my claim. Individuals that experience an "out-cold event" appear to rarely experience strong careers in the fight game (as evidenced by the lack of their presence at the top of the sport). Is this a rule? No, much like the rest of the universe, it is likely a question of probability. If Fighter A has a propensity to fall when hit with a shot that exceeds X amount of force whereas Fighter B is able to press on after receiving such a shot, it may be expected that Fighter B will experience greater success in his career relative to Fighter A.

Your final point seems axiomatic. You cannot really prove anything in this world (apart from semantically in mathematics). You can, however, provide support for hypotheses; and my hypothesis appears to have a great deal of support as of now.

The definition of your made-up term isn't as clear as you'd like it to be and the fact that you can point to two fights on polar opposites of the spectrum doesn't clear too much up. I think any reasonable person would agree that GSP was out cold vs. Serra but you somehow don't. In any case, I take issue with pretty much the rest of your argument. First, where's the evidence? You have provided none but repeatedly referred to the evidence you do have. Second, philosophical nitpicking aside, you can prove plenty of things in the world. If fighter A experiences an "out-cold-event" (or X) and then goes on to become a consensus top 5 P4P fighter (i.e. GSP) then it's clear that X didn't cause him to have a shitty career. On the other hand, if B experiences X and goes on to have a shitty career, the only thing we can say about that is that it's a possibility that X was a cause.

 

[5Rounder]

Never moved the goalposts (at all). I asked a question of the forum, and people provided their evidence to the contrary; some of them were good and some of them were not (I noted those that pointed to the contrary that fit the "out cold" criterion).

Would you argue that Aoki and Hunt have had stellar MMA careers to this point? I certainly would not, but am interested in opposing viewpoints.

The point is that 'stellar careers' and 'out-cold-events' are both highly subjective terms and, in the absence of you defining them, are amenable to you manipulating results to fit whatever hypothesis you started with. And, surprise, surprise, you've done just that. I think most reasonable people would agree that Hunt has, in fact, had a stellar career in MMA post 'out-cold-event'. He's a top 5 ranked HW at 40 FFS.

 

[0hm]

The definition of your made-up term isn't as clear as you'd like it to be and the fact that you can point to two fights on polar opposites of the spectrum doesn't clear too much up. I think any reasonable person would agree that GSP was out cold vs. Serra but you somehow don't. In any case, I take issue with pretty much the rest of your argument. First, where's the evidence? You have provided none but repeatedly referred to the evidence you do have. Second, philosophical nitpicking aside, you can prove plenty of things in the world. If fighter A experiences an "out-cold-event" (or X) and then goes on to become a consensus top 5 P4P fighter (i.e. GSP) then it's clear that X didn't cause him to have a shitty career. On the other hand, if B experiences X and goes on to have a shitty career, the only thing we can say about that is that it's a possibility that X was a cause.

Rewatch the fight, please, it is quite clear that GSP did not suffer an out-cold event in the Serra contest (just watched it over 5 times, he rolls to the side - conscious - and the ref stops the fight). Pretty sure you know what that does to the above post.

Even if he did go out, it would not affect my argument drastically. Once again, I said "traditionally" which means "more often than not." One fighter experiencing a wealth of success after such an occurrence would be a minority and the trend would still exist thereafter.

 

[0hm]

The point is that 'stellar careers' and 'out-cold-events' are both highly subjective terms and, in the absence of you defining them, are amenable to you manipulating results to fit whatever hypothesis you started with. And, surprise, surprise, you've done just that. I think most reasonable people would agree that Hunt has, in fact, had a stellar career in MMA post 'out-cold-event'. He's a top 5 ranked HW at 40 FFS.

A guy with a barely over "chance" MMA record and no meaningful titles (in said discipline) would not fit the bill of someone with a stellar career. Others may think so, but I would not.

Could he turn things around (which he may be in the process of doing) and end up having a stellar career? Absolutely. He first needs to do that, then we can talk. Either way, even if you add him to the list of fighters that have done well post-out-cold event, the list would still be less than 10 fighters out of much larger sample. The trend would still persist, by a large margin.

 

[5Rounder]

A guy with a barely over "chance" MMA record and no meaningful titles (in said discipline) would not fit the bill of someone with a stellar career. Others may think so, but I would not.

Could he turn things around (which he may be in the process of doing) and end up having a stellar career? Absolutely. He first needs to do that, then we can talk. Either way, even if you add him to the list of fighters that have done well post-out-cold event, the list would still be less than 10 fighters out of much larger sample. The trend would still persist, by a large margin.

LOlz @ 'barely over chance'.

Your entire argument presupposes a trend that you have failed to prove and is filled to the brim with logic fails. I look forward to seeing your paper on topic.