New Weight Classes - Realignment

[LouisBolanos]

accusing me of using a strawman and likening me to racists in the same paragraph... i am left with nothing but to applaud you.

what you're suggesting is nothing short of genius, and the way you're presenting it is true art. i am in awe.

Racists support segregation based on skin color, a physical trait. You support segregation based on size, another physical trait. Please tell me how they are different on a fundamental level. If I had erected a strawman like you did, I would have claimed that you are "exactly like a racist", which I clearly didn't.

There's also nothing genius or artistic about what I said, all it is is basic logic and common sense. If you think one needs to be a genius to understand why segregation based on physical traits is bad then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[JoshR86]

The 165lb has been talked about a lot, there's so many cross overs between 155 and 170 and 170 to 185 that pushing 170 up to 175 and creating a 165lb class makes sense.

165 will be the most stacked division in the UFC, and 175 will get some new and old life put back into it.

 

[SuperNerd]

You want to solve the problem of weight cutting, remove all weight classes and just have open weight competitions. True meritocracy, no size segregation, whoever beats everyone else is UFC champion, like 90% of real sports, both team and individual. Having a 125lbs UFC "champ" is about as retarded as having a below 5'5" tennis champ.

This is stupid. How do you think these weight classes were formed? To be politically correct? Why hasn't boxing made the move to one weight class?

I don't want to watch only LHWs, or "who is the single best". I want to watch Mixed Martial Arts, and MMA at 200lbs and MMA at 150 are very different games.

We agreed a long time ago 145ers are not the best, but fight fans want to see physically evenly matched competitors in a battle where fight technique is the strongest determining factor in who wins.


Tennis, NBA, ect. the entertainment is on determine who is the best at the sport. We agreed a loooong time ago, the bigger stronger guy is better at fighting. We're tired of seeing that. I don't want to see a LHW sit on a talented welterweight in a fight. In an open weight world, the fights do not get more interesting. Techniques won't change rapidly. They become repetitive and predictable.

This is the opinion from someone who has been blessed with combat sports going through growing pains 100s of years ago, but its too long ago to grasp the lessons, imo. You need to step backwards to see why were are here.

 

[LouisBolanos]

This is stupid. How do you think these weight classes were formed? To be politically correct? Why hasn't boxing made the move to one weight class?

I don't want to watch only LHWs, or "who is the single best". I want to watch Mixed Martial Arts, and MMA at 200lbs and MMA at 150 are very different games.

We agreed a long time ago 145ers are not the best, but fight fans want to see physically evenly matched competitors in a battle where fight technique is the strongest determining factor.


Tennis, NBA, ect. the entertainment is on determine who is the best at the sport. We agreed a loooong time ago, the bigger stronger guy is better at fighting. We're tired of seeing that. I don't want to see a LHW sit on a talented welterweight in a fight. In an open weight world, there fights do not get more interesting. They become repetitive and predictable.

How is time relevant in any way? We agreed on a lot of things a loooong time ago: weed is bad, women should get paid less, people of color should be segregated...that doesn't mean they're right, or logical or that we can't and shouldn't think out of the box and challenge the status quo.

You say that weight classes weren't formed for political correctness, and that fans decided a long time ago that we wanted to see people of similar size matchup, both of which are completely false when it comes to MMA:

1. The early UFC had no weight classes, because like myself, the Gracies had common sense and did not believe in this nonsense of size segregation. For them, to be called the best, you should be able to take on challenger at any size. No P4P fantasy bullcrap. I know, what a novel concept! Weight classes were added later for regulatory purposes, so it would be more palatable when the commissions were concerned. You can argue semantics, but that's political correctness in a nutshell.

2. MMA reached its zenith during the Pride heyday in Japan. The sport never touched that level of popularity in any country before or since. And what did Pride do, except routinely match up guys who are 50+lbs apart? Did the crowd turn away? Like hell they did, they LOVED IT.

 

[gunlok]

You failed to mention 105, 115 and 225

 

[20falarVerdades]

DC is not making 195 lbs again in a lifetime

 

[gono btw]

The UFC should adjust and add some weight classes. Here is the new proposed weight classes with the Champions assigned.

• Flyweight. 125 lb - Demetrious Johnson
  
• Bantamweight. 135 lb - TJ Dillashaw
  
• Featherweight. 145 lb - Max Holloway
  
• Lightweight. 155 lb - Khabib Nurmagomedov
  
• Super lightweight. 165 lb - Tyrone Woodley (or he can leave open)
  
• Welterweight. 175 lb - Tyrone Woodley
  
• Middleweight 185 lb - Robert Whitaker
  
• Super Middleweight 195 lbs - Daniel Cormier (or he can leave open)
  
• Light Heavyweight 205 - Daniel Cormier
  
• Heavyweight 265 - Stipe Miocic
  
• Open Class (Any Weight) - Stipe Miocic (or he can leave open)

The new adds are at 165 - 195 - and Open Weight. I think this will help more champion vs. champion fights and the Open Class would be awesome. Mighty Mouse can take a crack at anyone... once he's done ducking TJ.

Thoughts?

U mean a cruiserweight, somehow...

 

[SuperNerd]

How is time relevant in any way? We agreed on a lot of things a loooong time ago: weed is bad, women should get paid less, people of color should be segregated...that doesn't mean they're right, or logical or that we can't and shouldn't think out of the box and challenge the status quo.

You say that weight classes weren't formed for political correctness, and that fans decided a long time ago that we wanted to see people of similar size matchup, both of which are completely false when it comes to MMA:

1. The early UFC had no weight classes, because like myself, the Gracies had common sense and did not believe in this nonsense of size segregation. For them, to be called the best, you should be able to take on challenger at any size. No P4P fantasy bullcrap. I know, what a novel concept! Weight classes were added later for regulatory purposes, so it would be more palatable when the commissions were concerned. You can argue semantics, but that's political correctness in a nutshell.

2. MMA reached its zenith during the Pride heyday in Japan. The sport never touched that level of popularity in any country before or since. And what did Pride do, except routinely match up guys who are 50+lbs apart? Did the crowd turn away? Like hell they did, they LOVED IT.

1. MMA/UFC does not serve the purpose to figure out who the best is. It's a entertainment business. The "who is the best" is the story line you're buying into too hard.

The purist of fight fans, want to see 145ers fight each other, because they have something different to offer.

2. No.

 

[LouisBolanos]

1. MMA/UFC does not serve the purpose to figure out who the best is. It's a entertainment business. The "who is the best" is the story line you're buying into too hard.

You claimed weight classes were not added for political correctness, I proved you wrong. Weight classes were added to MMA for nothing more than regulatory purposes. It was a necessary compromise they made in response to the political backlash so the sport wouldn't be driven underground by the government.

You claimed people don't want to see huge size discrepancy in fights, I proved you wrong yet again. Some of the sport's biggest stars of the past (BJ, Saku, Fedor) took on opponents of all sizes and that's why they were so endearing to the fans

and lol at you claiming I'm buying into who's the best. If anyone on this forum appreciates MMA for what it truly is (entertainment), it's me. But you know who are actually buying into that argument? The fighters themselves. 130lbs manlets who claim they deserve more money and recognition because they're "P4P best", like it actually means something. Either you're a true badass who takes on all comers, or you acknowledge it's not a sport and you're just a manlet being protected from HWs who could break you in half. Can't have it both ways.

 

[SuperNerd]

You claimed weight classes were not added for political correctness, I proved you wrong. Weight classes were added to MMA for nothing more than regulatory purposes.

You claimed people don't want to see huge size discrepancy in fights, I proved you wrong yet again. Some of the sport's biggest stars of the past (BJ, Saku, Fedor) took on opponents of all sizes and that's why they were so endearing to the fans

you're being difficult and avoiding the discussion. This doesn't have to be a fight.

Why are they regulatory? Because boxing. Why did boxing do it? ...I'm not going wrestle you into discussing the idea you offered up. You're arguing a semantic of my larger point. I don't think the Olympics, boxing and other combat sports have lower weight classes to fill public pressure of giving small people a chance. I think the athletes and community recognize the differences and qualities in lower weight classes. They want a weight class for these skills to be displayed

Yes, people respect and admire fighters who go against great odds. That does not mean an open weight field of competition is better than weight classes. What made those events great, would be the norm.

You're not even trying to have the discussion you presented. You're just trying to poke holes in my side.

and lol at you claiming I'm buying into who's the best. If anyone on this forum appreciates MMA for what it truly is (entertainment), it's me. But you know who are actually buying into that argument? The fighters themselves. 130lbs manlets who claim they deserve more money and recognition because they're "P4P best", like it actually means something. Either you're a true badass who takes on all comers, or you acknowledge it's not a sport and you're just a manlet being protected from HWs who could break you in half. Can't have it both ways.

Stop talking like this. It's gross.

 

[radiored]

I really don't think the UFC have the roster to add Super Lightweight, Super Middleweight and Super Heavyweight, would love to see them but they would need to actively add a lot more fighters to make it competitive, with Injuries, fighter ducking, suspensions and other shite it is hard enough to keep the divisions they have interesting and attractive.

 

[radiored]

130lbs manlets who claim they deserve more money and recognition because they're "P4P best", like it actually means something. Either you're a true badass who takes on all comers, or you acknowledge it's not a sport and you're just a manlet being protected from HWs who could break you in half. Can't have it both ways.

Hate the P4P term and argument but do like weight classes in combat sports and in strength competitions too (Power lifting and Olympic weight lifting) and although the smaller guys couldn't beat the bigger ones and aren't as strong I think they collectively help the sports. Suppose it is harder to take in combat sports when the smaller guys act like they are the best fighters in the world when we know they heavier guys can beat their asses. In Powerlifting or Olmpic Weight Lifting we have the weights to let us see who is strongest even when they aren't competing against each other. But when someone like DJ is running his mouth of, remember the majority of fans don't buy into it, why his PPVs and drawing power is low.

 

[LouisBolanos]

you're being difficult and avoiding the discussion. This doesn't have to be a fight.

Slap fights are more entertaining than boring arguments. You said it yourself, this sport is about entertainment. As a keyboard MMA warrior, a big part of my daily entertainment routine is fighting other keyboard warriors on forums. Are you buying into the nonsense that forums should be about discussing whose point has the best merits instead of entertainment?

Why are they regulatory? Because boxing. Why did boxing do it? ...I'm not going wrestle you into discussing the idea you offered up. You're arguing a semantic of my larger point. I don't think the Olympics, boxing and other combat sports have lower weight classes to fill public pressure of giving small people a chance.

Again, you're arguing semantics. They're regulatory because that's the societal norm at the time, and they caved into political pressure to conform to that norm. If you were to trace the roots of boxing weight classes, you'll see it was indeed added so smaller boxers would have a better chance. This whole thing is political correctness.

Yes, people respect and admire fighters who go against great odds. That does not mean an open weight field of competition is better than weight classes. What made those events great, would be the norm.

Now you're completely changing your argument. You claim people do not want to see size mismatches, but that's completely false and the proof is in the pudding. Pride was entertaining as hell for the fans, they loved Minowaman vs. Giant Silva, they put some of the biggest mismatches like Fedor vs. Hong Man Cohi on their end of year Yarennoka cards and they crushed the ratings.

You're not even trying to present a legitimate argument, you just backtrack every time I provide actual evidence against what you're saying and arguing for arguments' sake.

Stop talking like this. It's gross.

Translation: I have no argument against anything you've said.

 

[rpn453]

The UFC should adjust and add some weight classes. Here is the new proposed weight classes with the Champions assigned.

• Flyweight. 125 lb - Demetrious Johnson
  
• Bantamweight. 135 lb - TJ Dillashaw
  
• Featherweight. 145 lb - Max Holloway
  
• Lightweight. 155 lb - Khabib Nurmagomedov
  
• Super lightweight. 165 lb - Tyrone Woodley (or he can leave open)
  
• Welterweight. 175 lb - Tyrone Woodley
  
• Middleweight 185 lb - Robert Whitaker
  
• Super Middleweight 195 lbs - Daniel Cormier (or he can leave open)
  
• Light Heavyweight 205 - Daniel Cormier
  
• Heavyweight 265 - Stipe Miocic
  
• Open Class (Any Weight) - Stipe Miocic (or he can leave open)

The new adds are at 165 - 195 - and Open Weight. I think this will help more champion vs. champion fights and the Open Class would be awesome. Mighty Mouse can take a crack at anyone... once he's done ducking TJ.

Thoughts?

Heavyweight should be the open class. No reason for any restrictions there.

All good aside from that. Maybe add a 215 or 220 cruiserweight class at some point too. Maybe even skip SMW and go with 200 LHW and 215 CW.

 

[LouisBolanos]

Hate the P4P term and argument but do like weight classes in combat sports and in strength competitions too (Power lifting and Olympic weight lifting) and although the smaller guys couldn't beat the bigger ones and aren't as strong I think they collectively help the sports. Suppose it is harder to take in combat sports when the smaller guys act like they are the best fighters in the world when we know they heavier guys can beat their asses. In Powerlifting or Olmpic Weight Lifting we have the weights to let us see who is strongest even when they aren't competing against each other. But when someone like DJ is running his mouth of, remember the majority of fans don't buy into it, why his PPVs and drawing power is low.

Sure, I can accept this argument.

 

[SuperNerd]

This whole thing is political correctness.

So you believe the desire to keep divisions under 180, or whatever, is to serve political correctness? I do not buy that at all.

Fight fans want to see 145ers fight each other. It's great stuff. It's much better than watching a 145 try to find a way to defeat a 200lber on every show.

Now you're completely changing your argument. You claim people do not want to see size mismatches, but that's completely false and the proof is in the pudding. Pride was entertaining as hell for the fans, they loved Minowaman vs. Giant Silva, they put some of the biggest mismatches like Fedor vs. Hong Man Cohi on their end of year Yarennoka cards and they crushed the ratings.

No, you've refused to address my point of a open weight league being less appealing than divisional fights based on tactics and fight technique available to the competitors.

With your Cathy Newman like attempts of "you're claiming", you've twice tried to redirect and simplify my point to "people don't like mismatches" which was not my point.

Could a show of mismatches and openweight fights sell? Yes. Would a league work? Nope.

 

[LouisBolanos]

So you believe the desire to keep divisions under 180, or whatever, is to serve political correctness? I do not buy that at all.

I'm saying that weight classes became a regular thing in boxing in the 19th century to accommodate the smaller boxers. I'm saying if MMA never added weight classes and kept going with open weight fights in the early 90s, PPV numbers wouldn't have dropped but politicians would have thrown the book at the UFC and killed the sport. It's fundamentally a politically correct move.

Fight fans want to see 145ers fight each other. It's great stuff. It's much better than watching a 145 try to find a way to defeat a 200lber on every show.

Fight fans want to see the biggest names fight each other. They don't care about discrepancies in size and qualifications. Conor would do bigger numbers fighting GSP at MW than he would against anyone at FW. Conor vs. Brock or Jones would be bigger than Conor vs. any LW. Why? Because it's entertainment at the end of the day, you said it yourself, even though you keep forgetting it. David vs Goliath mismatches between 2 massive names is more entertaining than anything else..

Did you see that clip where Conor sparred The Mountain from GOT? Do you know how many views there are on that video? People don't even need to know who Conor or The Mountain are, the image of a manlet vs. giant is naturally intriguing, way more so than 2 similarly sized people fighting each other. Fans and fighters alike love it, that's why Saku, Fedor and BJ are such beloved figures in the sport.

No, you've refused to address my point of a open weight league being less appealing than divisional fights based on tactics and fight technique available to the competitors.

Where's your proof? Remind me how those mismatches in Pride were less appealing than evenly matched fights to the larger fanbase again? Remind me how Conor vs. Floyd was less appealing than any Conor fight in MMA because of the huge skill discrepancy? Remind me how Conor vs. Jones would do less numbers than Conor vs. anyone at LW, because the huge size discrepancy? There's literally no proof to anything you're saying. It's comically absurd that you claim MMA is about entertainment, but dismiss the much higher entertainment value of mismatches with the biggest names, when in reality they've done some of the biggest numbers in Japan with mismatches, and the biggest PPV involving an MMA fighter by far, is a giant mismatch between 0-0 and 49-0.

 

[SuperNerd]

Fight fans want to see the biggest names fight each other. They don't care about discrepancies in size and qualifications.

The biggest name can't fight each other every night, on every match.

Where's your proof?

Tell me I am wrong. Tell me you believe an open weight league is more appealing in terms of techniques and tactics. Do you have more less when the fight has a significant weight difference?

You want to disturb the base and standard of MMA to indulge in spectacle.

and the proof this is what sells in the long term is UFC being the best and PRIDE, StrikeForce and EliteXC being dead.

Are mismatches sometimes exciting? Hell yes, should that be the standard for MMA? No that's a joke.

Fight fans do not gravitate to mismatched competition. Nobody does. ITs a side show

 

[rpn453]

You want to solve the problem of weight cutting, remove all weight classes and just have open weight competitions. True meritocracy, no size segregation, whoever beats everyone else is UFC champion, like 90% of real sports, both team and individual. Having a 125lbs UFC "champ" is about as retarded as having a below 5'5" tennis champ.

Everybody knows the smaller divisions are essentially the minor leagues for guys who can't compete against the best fighters, but I find them to be highly entertaining and so do many others. So they're not going anywhere. Except Flyweight. I wouldn't care if they ditched that.

Since weight classes are staying, it would be nice to have smaller increments for the huge talent pool between LW and MW where most lean men reside; to allow them more options to find an appropriate weight class for their size.

I don't want to see any changes to the whole weight cutting thing. I actually enjoy watching guys who cut large amounts of weight suffer; one of the reasons that real, live weigh-ins used to be so entertaining. I just want those who cut a reasonable amount of weight to have an appropriate class available to them.

 

[rpn453]

. . . Fight fans want to see the biggest names fight each other. They don't care about discrepancies in size and qualifications. Conor would do bigger numbers fighting GSP at MW than he would against anyone at FW. Conor vs. Brock or Jones would be bigger than Conor vs. any LW. Why? Because it's entertainment at the end of the day, you said it yourself, even though you keep forgetting it. David vs Goliath mismatches between 2 massive names is more entertaining than anything else..

That could be accommodated by removing lower limits to weight classes. There should only be upper limits to the minor leagues below HW. There should be nothing preventing Conor from fighting Brock at their natural weights at HW.

That's where the size discrimination comes in. Having minor leagues of various weight limits gives us more fighting to watch. But saying that a guy can't fight in a better league just because he's too small is discriminatory.

Of course, the fighters would have to want to do that. Most of the best small fighters have been reluctant to move up in class even when the larger fighter is hindered by a weight cut. Why would they want to fight that larger fighter at his best if they won't fight him then?