International [NATO News] What Sweden brings to NATO as its Newest Member

[PrinceOfPain]

The sanctions aint NATO ..

Sorry. You are correct. NATO has no teeth at all.

And as Russia will have any men or weapons after Ukraine..
Or is it going according to plans...

It's really cute how you guys think you're on the winning side.

 

[Tabarnakos]

Stop fucking expanding Nato. Why keep putting gasoline to fire???

it’s almost if the west wants war

They wouldn't join NATO if they didn't feel threatened by Russia. Finland and Sweden are re-considering now because of the Ukraine invasion. Joining NATO is an insurance policy against aggression.

The Putin regime doesn't like NATO not because they fear that NATO will invade Russia. They don't like NATO because it puts an halt to Russia expentionist ambitions. The Kremlin knows that as soon as a country join NATO that they cannot make that country their lapdog anymore. In other words: It stops the re-creation of the Soviet Union cold in it's tracks

 

[salamander]

NATO's got no teeth. Except sanctions - which the West has just made sure will never be effective again.

How so? Are you talking about the Russians doing their own SWIFT thing with China?

 

[lsa]

Sorry. You are correct. NATO has no teeth at all.



It's really cute how you guys think you're on the winning side.

NATO has no teeth?
When was the last time a NATO country was under attack?

So I guess you are on the winning side then?
Which is Russia?
At least you are honest about it.



Good to know.

 

[curryjunkie]

Why isn't this in the Ukraine thread? Is TS such a child that he refuses to participate if he can't control the thread? That's Putin levels of tantrum...

 

[Arkain2K]

Finland Hit by Cyber Attack, Airspace Breach as NATO Bid Weighed
By Leo Laikola | April 8, 2022

Prime Minister Sanna Marin

​

Finland reported an attack on government websites and a suspected airspace violation by Russian aircraft just as speculation mounts that the Nordic nation will opt to apply for membership in the NATO alliance.

Finland said on Friday a Russian state aircraft is suspected of having violated its airspace, followed by a cyber attack on the websites of Finland’s Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry, as well as some other government services. The events coincided with a webcast speech to Finnish lawmakers by Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskiy.

The 5.5-million-nation, which has the European Union’s longest border with Russia and fought two wars with the Soviet Union, underwent a historic shift in public backing for joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in a matter of days following its neighbor’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. While opinion polls in neighboring Sweden reflect a similar change, its ruling Social Democrats have so far remained opposed to such a move.

The Finnish government is due to send a white paper to parliament on its changed security environment next week, launching a formal process that would be finalized by the end of June, according to Prime Minister Sanna Marin. While Marin and President Sauli Niinisto have steered clear of giving a clear endorsement to the NATO entry, speculation is growing among pundits and media that other options are less likely by now. Almost half of all lawmakers openly support an application.

While the security-policy white paper won’t contain a proposal for joining, the government and president are prepared to submit an addendum on that “when the time is right” after they are satisfied lawmakers back the bid, Foreign Minister Pekka Haavisto said on Thursday.

Russia has repeatedly warned both Finland and Sweden against joining NATO, making both Nordic countries concerned about potential aggression from Moscow if they formally signal their alignment with the western bloc. NATO’s Article 5 mutual defense clause only applies to members.

The denial of service attack on websites was over at 1 p.m. in Helsinki, the government said in a tweet, adding most sites operated normally during the attack due to countermeasures. In a joint decision with Niinisto, the cabinet also expelled two Russian diplomats, with a Russian embassy employee also denied a visa extension.

Finland’s security service last month warned Russia would increase its spying and influence operations against the Nordic country. Authorities said earlier this week they are investigating a series of airspace violations by Russian civil aircraft that took place in March.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...er-attack-airspace-breach-as-nato-bid-weighed

 

[Cole train]

Finland Hit by Cyber Attack, Airspace Breach as NATO Bid Weighed
By Leo Laikola | April 8, 2022

Prime Minister Sanna Marin

​

Finland reported an attack on government websites and a suspected airspace violation by Russian aircraft just as speculation mounts that the Nordic nation will opt to apply for membership in the NATO alliance.

Finland said on Friday a Russian state aircraft is suspected of having violated its airspace, followed by a cyber attack on the websites of Finland’s Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry, as well as some other government services. The events coincided with a webcast speech to Finnish lawmakers by Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskiy.

The 5.5-million-nation, which has the European Union’s longest border with Russia and fought two wars with the Soviet Union, underwent a historic shift in public backing for joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in a matter of days following its neighbor’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. While opinion polls in neighboring Sweden reflect a similar change, its ruling Social Democrats have so far remained opposed to such a move.

The Finnish government is due to send a white paper to parliament on its changed security environment next week, launching a formal process that would be finalized by the end of June, according to Prime Minister Sanna Marin. While Marin and President Sauli Niinisto have steered clear of giving a clear endorsement to the NATO entry, speculation is growing among pundits and media that other options are less likely by now. Almost half of all lawmakers openly support an application.

While the security-policy white paper won’t contain a proposal for joining, the government and president are prepared to submit an addendum on that “when the time is right” after they are satisfied lawmakers back the bid, Foreign Minister Pekka Haavisto said on Thursday.

Russia has repeatedly warned both Finland and Sweden against joining NATO, making both Nordic countries concerned about potential aggression from Moscow if they formally signal their alignment with the western bloc. NATO’s Article 5 mutual defense clause only applies to members.

The denial of service attack on websites was over at 1 p.m. in Helsinki, the government said in a tweet, adding most sites operated normally during the attack due to countermeasures. In a joint decision with Niinisto, the cabinet also expelled two Russian diplomats, with a Russian embassy employee also denied a visa extension.

Finland’s security service last month warned Russia would increase its spying and influence operations against the Nordic country. Authorities said earlier this week they are investigating a series of airspace violations by Russian civil aircraft that took place in March.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...er-attack-airspace-breach-as-nato-bid-weighed

Yes was too lazy to mention it yesterday lol

Cyber warfare expected to increase while we wait for voting

 

[PrinceOfPain]

How so? Are you talking about the Russians doing their own SWIFT thing with China?

To an extent. Though, we're not just talking China. China, Russia, India, and Japan all have SWIFT alternatives, and Russian economic relations with all of them are very important (honestly, Japan has to be looking at its situation and absolutely shitting itself). It's pretty much taken as a given (by people responsible for managing national and global wealth) that the sanctions will accelerate de-dollarisation; which is precisely the Russian and Chinese objective. The ruble is also currently stronger than it was before the invasion (might be a bit of an illusion, but it's one that comes with the leverage of hard value in the form of gold and oil). That's just a ridiculous misfire - and the intentions behind the sanctions make it all even worse: cripple one of the worlds's central commodities producers for the sake of a corrupt puppet state? Jesus wept.

If you consider it sincerely, how many countries do you think are going to be eager to continue to tie their economic fates to western decision-making? Everyone's desperate for a more democratic approach to the managing of global economies. Viewed from a global perspective, the West is running and expanding a totalitarian stranglehold on the world.

Big picture, the Russians have demonstrated that to protect yourself from sanctions, you need to stop trading with the West. The West aided in that demonstration by teaching Russia to be self-sufficient, a lesson facilitated through decades of sanctions. And India, China, and Russia have set up shop across the road; their prices are better, they won't tell you their pronouns, and they won't bomb your country if you're not a belligerent on their borders.
From a Western perspective, that's just a horrible case study with which to provide the portion of the world that actually has things. And it's a case study that will be magnified when the famines really start to dig in and Western aid cannot come anywhere close to making up for the loss of Russian, Ukrainian, and Kazakh agriculture.
The big problem that the West is facing is that it offers the rest of the world nothing of value, other than the semi-extortionist presence of the American military. And other than America, the collective West is, to be frank, useless. Positioning themselves as a roadblock between Russia and the rest of the world is only going to magnify that.

As a side note, this whole thing terrifies me - because if the West finds that it cannot win the economic version of WW3 that it's chosen to engage in, and a rival power bloc does threaten to rise as a result, the West might start throwing nukes in an effort to cling on to the uni-polar world.
As another side note, I'm probably completely wrong on how things'll play out, but I don't think that there's an intelligent argument to be made in favour of sanctions.

 

[Tabarnakos]

Finland Hit by Cyber Attack, Airspace Breach as NATO Bid Weighed
By Leo Laikola | April 8, 2022

Prime Minister Sanna Marin

​

Finland reported an attack on government websites and a suspected airspace violation by Russian aircraft just as speculation mounts that the Nordic nation will opt to apply for membership in the NATO alliance.

Finland said on Friday a Russian state aircraft is suspected of having violated its airspace, followed by a cyber attack on the websites of Finland’s Foreign Ministry and Defense Ministry, as well as some other government services. The events coincided with a webcast speech to Finnish lawmakers by Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskiy.

The 5.5-million-nation, which has the European Union’s longest border with Russia and fought two wars with the Soviet Union, underwent a historic shift in public backing for joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in a matter of days following its neighbor’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine. While opinion polls in neighboring Sweden reflect a similar change, its ruling Social Democrats have so far remained opposed to such a move.

The Finnish government is due to send a white paper to parliament on its changed security environment next week, launching a formal process that would be finalized by the end of June, according to Prime Minister Sanna Marin. While Marin and President Sauli Niinisto have steered clear of giving a clear endorsement to the NATO entry, speculation is growing among pundits and media that other options are less likely by now. Almost half of all lawmakers openly support an application.

While the security-policy white paper won’t contain a proposal for joining, the government and president are prepared to submit an addendum on that “when the time is right” after they are satisfied lawmakers back the bid, Foreign Minister Pekka Haavisto said on Thursday.

Russia has repeatedly warned both Finland and Sweden against joining NATO, making both Nordic countries concerned about potential aggression from Moscow if they formally signal their alignment with the western bloc. NATO’s Article 5 mutual defense clause only applies to members.

The denial of service attack on websites was over at 1 p.m. in Helsinki, the government said in a tweet, adding most sites operated normally during the attack due to countermeasures. In a joint decision with Niinisto, the cabinet also expelled two Russian diplomats, with a Russian embassy employee also denied a visa extension.

Finland’s security service last month warned Russia would increase its spying and influence operations against the Nordic country. Authorities said earlier this week they are investigating a series of airspace violations by Russian civil aircraft that took place in March.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...er-attack-airspace-breach-as-nato-bid-weighed

Man that Finn prime is cute as hell, No idea if she's an effective politician or not but i'd watch her do long speeches every day XD

 

[salamander]

@PrinceOfPain

This is incredibly informative. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

 

[Arkain2K]

Finland Gears Up For Historic NATO Decision
BybSam KINGSLEY | Sat, April 9, 2022

Finland is preparing for a potentially historic decision "before midsummer" on whether to apply to join NATO as a deterrent against Russian aggression.

The Nordic nation of 5.5 million has traditionally been militarily non-aligned, in part to avoid provoking its eastern neighbour, with which it shares a 1,300 kilometre (830 mile) border.

But Russia's invasion of Ukraine on February 24 saw public support for joining NATO double from 30 to 60 percent, according to a series of polls.

"Never underestimate the capacity of Finns to take rapid decisions when the world changes," former Finnish prime minister Alexander Stubb told AFP.

Himself a long-time NATO advocate, Stubb now believes Finland making a membership application is "a foregone conclusion" as Finns re-evaluate their relationship with their neighbour.

Next week a government-commissioned national security review will be delivered to parliament, the Eduskunta, to help Finnish MPs make up their own minds, before it is put to a vote.

"We will have very careful discussions but not taking any more time than we have to," Prime Minister Sanna Marin told a news conference on Friday.

"I think we will end the discussion before midsummer," she added.

"My guess is that the application will be filed sometime during the month of May" in time for the June NATO summit in Madrid, Stubb said.

Change of Heart

Finland declared independence in 1917 after 150 years of Russian rule, only for its vastly outnumbered army to fight off an attempted Soviet invasion during the Second World War inflicting heavy losses on the Red Army.

Hostilities ended in a peace deal that saw Finland ceding several border areas to the Soviet Union.

Finnish leaders agreed to remain neutral during the Cold War in exchange for guarantees from Moscow that it would not invade.

The country's forced neutrality to appease its stronger neighbour coined the term "Finlandization".

Finland has remained outside the transatlantic military alliance, and despite some cuts after the Cold War it has focused on maintaining well-funded defence and preparedness capabilities.

"We're able to mobilise 280,000 to 300,000 men and women within a matter of days," Stubb said, adding that 900,000 reserves could also be called up.

Last week Finland's government agreed a 40-percent hike in defence spending by 2026, to further strengthen the country's position.

"We have walked a long way when it comes to our security policies, and they have worked so far," said Centre Party MP Joonas Kontta.

Like the majority of his parliamentary colleagues, the 32-year-old used to think that NATO membership was "something that we don't need at the moment".

But Russia's invasion "changed something in Europe in a way that can't be changed back", he told AFP, and Kontta recently announced that he now believes it is time to seek to join the alliance.

A number of MPs have also recently announced similar changes of heart regarding Finland's "NATO question" -- although many more are keeping their positions to themselves awaiting more detailed discussions.

Anti-NATO Minority

Only six of Finland's 200 MPs in a recent poll by public broadcaster Yle openly voiced anti-NATO views, including Markus Mustajarvi from the Left Alliance party

Finland and Sweden's non-alignment "has brought stability to the whole of Northern Europe", the Lapland MP told AFP.

Mustajarvi questions whether NATO's Article 5 commitment to mutual defence would provide genuine protection in case of an attack.

Instead he cites Finland's own defence capabilities which are "so strong that they would force Russia to think what price it would pay for attacking".

Despite receiving "all sorts of feedback" from the public and his fellow MPs over his stance, Mustajarvi insists he has "thought this through to the end and so far I don't see a reason to change my position".

Grey Zone

Since Russia's attack, Finland's leadership has undertaken an intensive series of talks to canvass opinion from other NATO states about a possible membership bid.

Along with neighbouring Sweden, Finland has received public assurances from secretary general Jens Stoltenberg that the alliance's door remains open, as well as expressions of support from numerous members including the US, UK, Germany, France and Turkey.

But attempting to join NATO would likely be seen as a provocation by the Kremlin, for whom the expansion of the US-led alliance on its borders has been a prime security grievance.

Finland's president Sauli Niinisto has warned that Russia's response could be "on the brash side", including airspace, territorial violations and hybrid attacks.

The Kremlin has pledged to "rebalance the situation" in the event of Finland joining NATO.

Meanwhile, Foreign Minister Pekka Haavisto has acknowledged that Russia could seek to destabilise a membership bid during the "grey zone" between an application and its ratification by all 30 NATO states, which could take four months to a year.

"Finland has always tried to stay away from the grey zone," Stubb said, but he believes that Finland has the resilience to withstand potential Russian aggression or hybrid attacks.

https://news.yahoo.com/finland-gears-historic-nato-decision-025902179.html

 

[12ga.]

Never thought I'd say I miss the cold war. Besides good 80s action movies people understood boundries. Oh well I had a charmed life. Would like to enjoy my retirement I worked hard for though.

 

[12ga.]

Man that Finn prime is cute as hell, No idea if she's an effective politician or not but i'd watch her do long speeches every day XD

...must not get out much. 6 at best.

 

[Tabarnakos]

...must not get out much. 6 at best.

i'm probably one of of the guy that goes out the most on Sherdog. But man...no she is not the most beautiful womani have ever seen but for a politician she is hot as fuck. Those eyes are truly something

This is certainly better than Hillary Clinton lol

 

[12ga.]

i'm probably one of of the guy that goes out the most on Sherdog. But man...no she is not the most beautiful womani have ever seen but for a politician she is hot as fuck. Those eyes are truly something

This is certainly better than Hillary Clinton lol

Oh okay with that context you're right. Like I'd say AOC is a 7 but in politics a 10.

 

[SanchoMF]

Stop fucking expanding Nato. Why keep putting gasoline to fire???

it’s almost if the west wants war

It's almost that some of the countries around Russia join NATO feel threatened by their big drunk neighbour.

 

[12ga.]

It's almost that some of the countries around Russia join NATO feel threatened by their big drunk neighbour.

Its understandable they join NATO. Like all colonists, Russia was ruthless. But does it improve or detract from global security is the real question. It's like your can be right but wrong. The enemy has a vote.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Yes was too lazy to mention it yesterday lol

Cyber warfare expected to increase while we wait for voting

Not surprising, given that it's the only form of warfare the Russians aren't embarrassingly bad at

 

[Ridgeback]

for a politician she is hot as fuck. Those eyes are truly something

This is certainly better than Hillary Clinton lol

Agreed.

 

[SanchoMF]

Its understandable they join NATO. Like all colonists, Russia was ruthless. But does it improve or detract from global security is the real question. It's like your can be right but wrong. The enemy has a vote.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
A country that's not hostile should have nothing to fear but it doesn't really pan out like that in the real world.