NATO invites Montenegro to become 29th member

[grimballer]

They are declaring themselves as Montenegrins and that's all that matters.

You would force them do declare themselves as Serbs or what?

They were always kinda confused about their identity. Before the WWII Serbs, after the war all Montenegrins, and after the breakup of Yugoslavia some are Serbs, some Montenegrins.

There was also never some ancient tribe called Americans. So what should we do about America?

cool, but it doesnt change the fact that they are serbs.

montenegro (crna gora) meaning black mountain was name given to the region of zeta after cronjevic dynasty. crojevic were serbs, just like balsic, lazarevic n brankovic before them. thats like saying saudis are different n separate ethnicity n are not really arabs.

all that "confusion" is nothing more than strategy of divide n conquer by those who tried to rule that region. n its the same thing with most croats n bosniaks.

this is where serbian (shokavian) is/was spoken in former yugoslavia

as you can see most ppl in that region are actually serbs of different religions.

 

[barehanded]

If they are really selling votes in Montenegro, then why didn't Russians buy them to make country more pro-Russian? I mean, they did buy everything on the Montenegrin coast. So they should have no problem to buy enough votes to change political orientation of such a small country. Don't tell me that pro-Western local mafioso have more money than Russians.

 

[barehanded]

cool, but it doesnt change the fact that they are serbs.

montenegro (crna gora) meaning black mountain was name given to the region of zeta after cronjevic dynasty. crojevic were serbs, just like balsic, lazarevic n brankovic before them. thats like saying saudis are different n separate ethnicity n are not really arabs.

all that "confusion" is nothing more than strategy of divide n conquer by those who tried to rule that region. n its the same thing with most croats n bosniaks.

this is where serbian (shokavian) is/was spoken in former yugoslavia

as you can see most ppl in that region are actually serbs of different religions.

Because of this ideology Serbia is shrinking and even the people that really were Serbs are starting to call themselves with different names.

But some people will never learn.

 

[grimballer]

Because of this ideology Serbia is shrinking and even the people that really were Serbs are starting to call themselves with different names.

But some people will never learn.

what ideology? truth?

you can love it or hate it, but those are facts

 

[barehanded]

what ideology? truth?

you can love it or hate it, but those are facts

They don't teach this bullshit even in Serbian schools.

To say that all Shtokavians are Serbs is stupid because both Croats and Serbs were there before Shtokavian even existed. Even if it was purely Serbian language it means nothing anyway in terms of ethnicity. African-Americans are not English because they speak their language.

The part about history of Montenegrins in your post was not that incorrect. But the conclusion about their ethnicity was retarded.

 

[grimballer]

They don't teach this bullshit even in Serbian schools.

To say that all Shtokavians are Serbs is stupid because both Croats and Serbs were there before Shtokavian even existed. Even if it was purely Serbian language it means nothing anyway in terms of ethnicity. African-Americans are not English because they speak their language.

The part about history of Montenegrins in your post was not that incorrect. But the conclusion about their ethnicity was retarded.

you seem like a confused individual.

shtokavian is south slavic dialect. what you think serbs n croats spoke before that? german?

n your comparison with african americans doesnt make any sense.

aa were brought over to american n forced to speak english. nobody forced croats to speak serbian. thats their mother tongue, just like bosnians n montenegrins. they call it other than serbian cause of political/nationalistic reasons.

this is traditional croatian language (chakavian)

n to illusrtate more my point this is european map between 19th n 20th century

matches well other 2 maps

 

[barehanded]

you seem like a confused individual.

shtokavian is south slavic dialect. what you think serbs n croats spoke before that? german?

You seem like an uneducated person. When did Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared?

 

[grimballer]

You seem like an uneducated person. When did Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared?

what did they speak before that?

they didnt have a language? they were mute?

those who spoke chakavian werent really croats?

 

[barehanded]

what did they speak before that?

they didnt have a language? they were mute?

those who spoke chakavian werent really croats?

lol they did have a language but it was not Shtokavian.

If Shtokavians = Serbs, where were Serbs before Shtokavian existed?

Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared almost half of millennium after Croats and Serbs settled in the Balkans. So much of it being ancient Serbian language and a factor that makes someone being a Serb.

Also it was spreading westwards most rapidly during Turkish invasions, Turks were settling Serbs that were fighting for them. Austrians also settled them and Croats for the same purpose on the other side of the border a little bit later. It was something like lingua franca for most South Slavs under Turkish occupation, and it gained ground at the expense of other dialects. So the western borders of Shtokavian were mostly western borders of Turkish conquests.

What you seem to not understand is that few centuries ago most people were illiterate peasants without any kind of identity besides loyalty to their ruler and religion. So in the beginning, the same people in border regions could be called Croats and Serbs depending on the country that ruled over them. It was the nobility that preserved Croatian and Serbian name, not masses of illiterate peasants that could change their ethnic name in a heartbeat. So it's quite impossible to determine were your ancestors Croats or Serbs or something else that far in the history.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

NATO bombed us (Montenegro) back in the 90s, fuck them and Djukanovic that mafioso fucked our country & economy up and is only in power because he is a western puppet who made a backdoor deal to escape a lengthy prison sentence for cigarette & contraband smuggling. Montenegro should stay away from NATO and try to be neutral, and diplomatic with both sides instead of inflaming regional tensions and getting involved in the west vs russia conflict.

Yup, independence is key.

NATO continuing to move east is just more and more provocation.

 

[grimballer]

lol they did have a language but it was not Shtokavian.

If Shtokavians = Serbs, where were Serbs before Shtokavian existed?

Proto-Shtokavian idiom appeared almost half of millennium after Croats and Serbs settled in the Balkans. So much of it being ancient Serbian language and a factor that makes someone being a Serb.

Also it was spreading westwards most rapidly during Turkish invasions, Turks were settling Serbs that were fighting for them. Austrians also settled them and Croats for the same purpose on the other side of the border a little bit later. It was something like lingua franca for most South Slavs under Turkish occupation, and it gained ground at the expense of other dialects. So the western borders of Shtokavian were mostly western borders of Turkish conquests.

What you seem to not understand is that few centuries ago most people were illiterate peasants without any kind of identity besides loyalty to their ruler and religion. So in the beginning, the same people in border regions could be called Croats and Serbs depending on the country that ruled over them. It was the nobility that preserved Croatian and Serbian name, not masses of illiterate peasants that could change their ethnic name in a heartbeat. So it's quite impossible to determine were your ancestors Croats or Serbs or something else that far in the history.

but they did have a different language though, right? otherwise they would be no point of distinguishing between 2 groups since both were slavic in same region n most likely practice same slavic pagan religion

so the only distinction between the 2 was language.

so here are "dialects" spoken in croatia

so in croatia there are 3 different dialects, which are especially 3 different languages, while all serbs, no matter where they live (croatia, bosnia, montenegro or serbia) speak shtokavian.

with all that its pretty easy to conclude that shtokavian is serbian language. n all those speaking that dialect are either serbs unaware of their true identity or non serbs who pretty much adopted it as their native tongue.

your 2nd part kinda proves my point as many serbs (uskoks) were fleeing turks n were settling territory of croatia control by austrians, while many croatians fled to austria (burgenland croats)

for your 3rd point... well of course most ppl at that time didnt have the notion of nationalism, so it was much easier to convince them then that they are something they are not. like you said religion played big factor then, however one thing you cant hide is native or mother tongue. while its easy to make peasants change their religion n thus their nationality, its much harder n almost impossible to change their language.

so again while serbs in entire region only speak one dialect, croats speak 3.

that should tell you all you need to know.

 

[JDragon]

but they did have a different language though, right? otherwise they would be no point of distinguishing between 2 groups since both were slavic in same region n most likely practice same slavic pagan religion

so the only distinction between the 2 was language.

so here are "dialects" spoken in croatia

so in croatia there are 3 different dialects, which are especially 3 different languages, while all serbs, no matter where they live (croatia, bosnia, montenegro or serbia) speak shtokavian.

with all that its pretty easy to conclude that shtokavian is serbian language. n all those speaking that dialect are either serbs unaware of their true identity or non serbs who pretty much adopted it as their native tongue.

your 2nd part kinda proves my point as many serbs (uskoks) were fleeing turks n were settling territory of croatia control by austrians, while many croatians fled to austria (burgenland croats)

for your 3rd point... well of course most ppl at that time didnt have the notion of nationalism, so it was much easier to convince them then that they are something they are not. like you said religion played big factor then, however one thing you cant hide is native or mother tongue. while its easy to make peasants change their religion n thus their nationality, its much harder n almost impossible to change their language.

so again while serbs in entire region only speak one dialect, croats speak 3.

that should tell you all you need to know.

I don't know a lot about regional dialects...but a pre-war map pf dialects definitely fails to convince me.

 

[Madmick]

I don`t get it, are you saying that thousands of russians getting paid is anegdotical?

Huh?

Spoiler

Also having good GDP doesn't mean that people in general live better and wouldn't sell their votes.

China's general economic power is good, but look at here:





Now I dont know what situation is in Montenegro, but i am willing to believe Serbs in this thread

.

China's collective economic power is great. Their per capita economic power is shit: $6.8k/yr, or nearly a 1/3 of Montenegro. You're confusing concepts.

 

[RubberGuard5]

If they are really selling votes in Montenegro, then why didn't Russians buy them to make country more pro-Russian? I mean, they did buy everything on the Montenegrin coast. So they should have no problem to buy enough votes to change political orientation of such a small country. Don't tell me that pro-Western local mafioso have more money than Russians.

Well, maybe it's not that easy to do it when you are not the party in power. These things are not that hard to find out.

But the better question is, why didn't they use all that money and try to influence people the old fashion way, via massive propaganda campaign. NATO side got all sorts of actors and athletes to tell people how awesome NATO is. Russians got nothing. I don't think very competent people are running Russia.

 

[therealdope]

You just gotta love it when people from across the ocean seek to educate you about your local affairs.

How can you delude yourself this much? You really think you are in the possession of knowledge of how things go in Montenegro just because you read internet news and Wikipedia?

I can tell you this, if you think that you can convince people in North America that reality is different than what they read on the web, news, gov't info, Vice reports, or what the Brookings institute told them, then you are wasting your time.

No argument or facts that you present will ever convince them that you are not the one being deluded.

 

[grimballer]

I don't know a lot about regional dialects...but a pre-war map pf dialects definitely fails to convince me.

Considering those are essentially 3 different languages it should.

But let's look at it again

In Serbia, Bosnia n Montenegro:

Serbs speak/spoke shtokavian
Croats speak/spoke shtokavian
Bosniaks (Muslims) speak/spoke shtokavian
Montenegrins speak/spoke shtokavian

In all 3 places the only language spoken was shtokavian which was commonly known as serbo-Croatian for long time.

In Croatia however:

Serbs speak/spoke shtokavian
Bosniaks (Muslims) speak/spoke shtokavian
Montenegrins speak/spoke shtokavian

While Croats speak/spoke chakavian, kaykavian n shtokavian.

Now also considering that chakavian is historically original Croatian language, it's easy to conclude that they either borrowed someone's else language or are not who they say they are. N differences in the region between ppl speaking same language but claiming different ethnicities is solely religious

 

[barehanded]

but they did have a different language though, right?

No they didn't. At first all Slavs spoken basically the same language. Croats and Serbs continued to speak it with slight regional variations for half of millennium after their arrival to the Balkans before modern dialects started to develop.

otherwise they would be no point of distinguishing between 2 groups since both were slavic in same region n most likely practice same slavic pagan religion

Then what would be the point of distinguishing Slavs in any way back when they all shared common language and religion?

Croats and Serbs shared variation of that same Slavic language and they shared religion both when they were Pagan and after they become Christians. Catholic-Orthodox split came centuries after they settled in their homelands. So they were even more similar then now, yet they were considered separate.

so the only distinction between the 2 was language.

No it was not. You lack the basic knowledge of Slavic history.

All Slavs spoken the same language. Croats and Serbs did it for about 300 years after they settled in the Balkans. In 300-500 years after they settled they started to develop their own variation of this common Slavic language. It was only about 500 years after they settled when dialects started to appear. Modern dialects became completely diversified in the 15th century. A little bit later western border of Shtokavian became identical with the western border of Ottoman empire.

so in croatia there are 3 different dialects, which are especially 3 different languages, while all serbs, no matter where they live (croatia, bosnia, montenegro or serbia) speak shtokavian.

That's because Turks conquered all Serbs and only part of Croats. Shtokavian spread most rapidly under Ottomans, just compare western border of Shtokavian with western border of Turkish conquest. You can't blame Croats for preserving their dialects instead of letting Turks conquer and resettle them to create Shtokavian melting pot. If Turks conquered all of Croatia, all Croats would probably be Shtokavian. Other dialects were preserved only in the areas that successfully resisted Ottoman invasion.

your 2nd part kinda proves my point as many serbs (uskoks) were fleeing turks n were settling territory of croatia control by austrians, while many croatians fled to austria (burgenland croats)

No, Uskoks were mostly Croats. But some of them were also Serbs, Vlachs and even Italians. They were formed in the city that is 99% Croatian. After their strongholds in the south were conquered they were moving northwards. There was never absolutely nothing Serbian in the city were they were formed, but they did accept many Serbs in their ranks. And they were not that significant part of migrations, the only mostly Serb group of Uskoks settled in Zumberak area consisting of few villages. Everything other connected with Uskoks is associated with Croats, including most of their leaders and all of the cities in which they had their strongholds.

while its easy to make peasants change their religion n thus their nationality, its much harder n almost impossible to change their language.

False.

No Croats and Serbs spoken the dialects they are speaking now when they arrived and for almost 500 years later.

Also, you have hundreds of other more extreme examples all around the world.

 

[Harmonica]

Again, until I see some figures or some well-grounded investigative piece establishing a widespread abuse here, then I'll trust that the general economic power of the country indicates (without regard to specifics) an insulation against elections being "bought".

I can tell you this, if you think that you can convince people in North America that reality is different than what they read on the web, news, gov't info, Vice reports, or what the Brookings institute told them, then you are wasting your time.

No argument or facts that you present will ever convince them that you are not the one being deluded.

Now I see what you mean.

 

[grimballer]

No they didn't. At first all Slavs spoken basically the same language. Croats and Serbs continued to speak it with slight regional variations for half of millennium after their arrival to the Balkans before modern dialects started to develop.

Well of course all Slavs spoke same language when they were living together. But once they started their migration across Europe, that's when variations happened.

Then what would be the point of distinguishing Slavs in any way back when they all shared common language and religion?

You tell me? You're the one claiming there was no difference between the 2, yet they were 2 distinguished tribes.

Croats and Serbs shared variation of that same Slavic language and they shared religion both when they were Pagan and after they become Christians. Catholic-Orthodox split came centuries after they settled in their homelands. So they were even more similar then now, yet they were considered separate.

That's cause they weren't similar. They became similar living next to each other.

No it was not. You lack the basic knowledge of Slavic history.

All Slavs spoken the same language. Croats and Serbs did it for about 300 years after they settled in the Balkans. In 300-500 years after they settled they started to develop their own variation of this common Slavic language. It was only about 500 years after they settled when dialects started to appear. Modern dialects became completely diversified in the 15th century. A little bit later western border of Shtokavian became identical with the western border of Ottoman empire.

So you claim that they spoke the same language entire time they were on the move, but once they settle next to each other their language became different?

That's because Turks conquered all Serbs and only part of Croats. Shtokavian spread most rapidly under Ottomans, just compare western border of Shtokavian with western border of Turkish conquest. You can't blame Croats for preserving their dialects instead of letting Turks conquer and resettle them to create Shtokavian melting pot. If Turks conquered all of Croatia, all Croats would probably be Shtokavian. Other dialects were preserved only in the areas that successfully resisted Ottoman invasion.

It's not like Croatia had it's own state. They were under foreign rule even longer than Serbs. It's was succession of Austrian n Hungarian rules. For the long time they didn't even speak their own language. Official language in Croatia was Latin n German for long time.

Also the "shtokavian melting pot" was more of a Austriohungarian thing. They came up with "serbo Croatian" language.

No, Uskoks were mostly Croats. But some of them were also Serbs, Vlachs and even Italians. They were formed in the city that is 99% Croatian. After their strongholds in the south were conquered they were moving northwards. There was never absolutely nothing Serbian in the city were they were formed, but they did accept many Serbs in their ranks. And they were not that significant part of migrations, the only mostly Serb group of Uskoks settled in Zumberak area consisting of few villages. Everything other connected with Uskoks is associated with Croats, including most of their leaders and all of the cities in which they had their strongholds.

What you call "Croatians" were mostly catholic Serbs.

False.

No Croats and Serbs spoken the dialects they are speaking now when they arrived and for almost 500 years later.

Also, you have hundreds of other more extreme examples all around the world.

They were 2 distinguished tribes. If they were exactly the same (spoke same language n same religion) there would be no difference between the 2 n they would no be 2 different slavic tribes living in same region. They would be one. Which was not the case.

 

[dickbutkis]

[\QUOTE]Have you ever lived in Montenegro? Had relatives there? No? Then I am pretty sure I know a lot more than you about how well off they are.[/QUOTE]

My family members tell me Montenegro started going downhill when the manufacturing jobs left around the time Djukanovic was elected. Foreign investment (although I am against selling out the country) is difficult when local politicians demand bribes before ground gets broken. For instance, Norwegians wanted to open a ski resort in Kolasin, one that would provide jobs and help boost the local economy, (Bjelecica has one fuckin lift) but politicians demanded one million euros "for the view" nevermind the fact these Norwegian people were going to foot the bill for the construction and build a 5 star resort. The government is a mafia state and only wants NATO hand outs and to make matter worse of course Albanian-Montenegrins are encouraging this so they can continue to provoke Serbia; the fucked up thing is that Crnagorci are trapped in the crossfire. If Montenegro gives Serbia the finger they are going to fuck up relations with their number 1 trading partner; which will lead to a decrease in exports higher tariffs on imports and a decline in summer tourism. Staying neutral is our best plan. Why do we have to side with anyone? I think we are being forced into a corner, between a rock and a hard place...in order to polarize us, they dont like how we all get along...