My God, they really have been saying boxing is dead for over a century

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So you'll concede that it's not by virtue of the style of fighting itself that woos fans but simply by how the product is marketed.

I've made several comments talking about how brilliant (and at times disingeunous) the UFC brand is in hyping fighters...

I suppose I just miss the glory days when boxing was fu*king huge in the States as well as the world...where everyone knew who Tyson was...HOlyfield etc.

I remember back in my days in Korea watching on the TV Tyson become as superstar, Roy JOnes jr getting absolutely robbed, Julio Cesar Chavez dominating all opponents (until Sweet Pea and then Randall)
 
Abishai....
sometimes you're a cool guy, other times you're nuts.
You get so emotional whenever anyone says something bad about mma.
If you hate boxing so much then why are you always here?

And it fu*king drives me up the wall that people accuse me of "hating boxing."

Take a look at my posts...

the majority of them are in the War room, and Boxing subforums.

I hardly ever go into the Heavies.
 
LOL...resorting to fabrications, distortions of statistics again in a desperate attempt to malign MMA?

You would do Kid McCoy proud...

The most watched North American MMA bout of all time was Kimbo/Thompson which had 7.21 million viewers in the United States. Factoring in MMA's other major markets it probably reached say 9-11 (and 11 would be very generous) viewers across the world at best (I'm not sure how it was distributed in Canada for example). In fact, of the most watched North American MMA bouts, the top 10 virtually all fall within 2008. That's not surprising... 2008-9 was the current peak of MMA in North America with it finally reaching Network TV, something that since the EliteXC collapse has looked unlikely to happen (although things may change with the UFC purchasing Showtime). It may be worth looking at the fighters that caused these spikes: of the top 10 most watched bouts 8 were on two cards headlined by Kimbo which also contained Gina Carrano (both of which undoubtedly pulled in viewers) and two took place on the Tito/Shamrock free-to-air card (which also happen to be the only two not to fall in 2008). Considering Kimbo is basically gone from MMA, Shamrock has been relegated to the minor leagues, Gina is only just making her return (and it's up in the air as to whether she stays long term or not) and Tito has basically lost his drawing power that's a lot of the stars responsible for MMA's growth gone with no-one stepping up to replace them.

Of course, "most watched" lists generally exclude PPVs and considering MMA is a PPV business in North America it would be unfair to simply dismiss them. The most watched MMA PPV of all time was UFC 100 in 2009 which drew about 1.6 million PPV buys. Since then no other PPV card has come close with the highest others generally only just breaking the 1,000,000 mark. Of the 3 PPVs since that have broken the 1 million buy mark 2 have been headlined by Lesnar. Factor in there his length absence from the cage and that his current absence may or may not become an enforced retirement. Cain has shown little of the same drawing power; his bout with Lesnar had less viewers than Lesnar's bout with Carwin and his bout with Nog headlined one of the UFC's worst performing shows in that period. Notably the last year contained two PPV's (UFC 125 and UFC 119) emanating from the US which failed the break 300,000 buys, something that hadn't happened since UFC 56 in 2005, the same year that the original Ultimate Fighter came out (it's worth noting that other cards failed to break 300,000 including UFC 110, UFC 127, UFC 89 and UFC 85 but these all happened outside the US (Australia for the first 2, the UK for the second two and so with tape delay and theI like I thought it unfair to include them). Also look at how the drawing power of the UFC's biggest stars have diminished as well; GSP used to regularly get a million+ PPV buys during that 2008-9 heyday but since UFC 100 he's yet to break that 1,000,000 figure... despite having a season of TUF for one bout and the mass hype about the UFC's stadium show and a stacked card for UFC 129.

Then factor in TUF ratings being down from their average (even excluding the Kimbo effect) despite including Brock...

And that's just North America...

Let's take a look at MMA's other most well known market, Japan.

In Japan's most watched ever MMA match around 35 million tuned in to watch Krazy Horse take on Ken Kaneko. That figure is a little distorted due to Kaneko being a celebrity so if we go for pure MMA matches that didn't feature a tv personality then Rulon Gardner vs Yoshida has around 33 million viewers. Still too celebrity? Yoshida vs Ogawa had around 32 million viewers. Still too celebrity? Saku vs Akiyama had around the same amount. That's without including the mixed rules JLB vs Sapp bout or any of the K1 Kickboxing bouts that took place on mixed shows.

Now?

Now Dream and Sengoku basically have to beg to even be allowed on the air because their ratings have collapsed so much. The bottom has absolutely fallen out of the Japanese MMA market and even if MMA in the US was growing instead of at best plateauing and falling at worst it wouldn't make up for how much it has disappeared in the Land of the Rising Sun.

That's without getting into issues such as domestic MMA in the UK still having not recovered from Cage Rage's collapse in the wake of EliteXC's passing etc etc.

MMA went through a huge growth spurt, in Japan in around 2003-2005/6 and in the US from around 2006-2008/9. Since then Japan has collapsed, EliteXC fell apart (and their huge TV ratings with it) and the UFC has essentially plateaued at best in popularity. Less people are watching MMA now than they used to... how can that be translated into any way other than MMA being less popular than it was a few years back.

Which happily, is exactly what I said...

Yes, MMA is clearly flourishing...

Wait... MMA is less popular than it was a few years back?

How can that be?

:icon_chee
 
I was huge on MMA for a while, but my interest has waned quite significantly. I still like it, but too many lackluster ppvs, injuries and an overabundance of assholes have caused me to stop caring as much. I constantly lose track of when the next UFC show is, and rarely every check HDNet to see what shows they have coming up. I think oversaturation is a big part of that.

I'll always be a boxing fan at heart, no matter how much they piss me off with bad judging and superfights that don't take place, because I know there will always be great fights around the corner. I just can't turn my back on the bitch.
 
No worries. I think people hear "MMA is the fastest growing sport" etc etc so often that they begin to accept it without thought especially as I think most US fans simply don't understand quite how big MMA was in Japan during its heyday, especially when K1 starting doing more MMA events and thus quite how dramatic its fall was.

None of that takes away from how incredible its rise in the US was... within the space of a few years it leapt from something that was on the very, very, very edge to something that is undoubtedly part of the popular culture in the US. Even if it only ever remains at this level, or even drops down a bit that's still utterly remarkable. UFC 21 was a decade prior to UFC 100 almost to the day, was held in front of 3000 fans, probably ended up only selling a few more PPVs and was the first card to feature the 3 x 5 minute rounds an 10 point must system. UFC 34 was the first one we have reliable PPV data for and sold around 65,000 PPV's. 5 years later UFC 66 had around a million. Any drop off in popularity now can't take that away...
 
Consort I don't know why I give you $hit...you are one of the coolest guys on this forum...

I suppose I'm just having a real bad day.
 
I'm a lot like consortium, only an asshole to boot.

Comes with the job, though. No wait, not true. I was an asshole before being modded.
 
Pff, you want me to work?
 
I was huge on MMA for a while, but my interest has waned quite significantly. I still like it, but too many lackluster ppvs, injuries and an overabundance of assholes have caused me to stop caring as much. I constantly lose track of when the next UFC show is, and rarely every check HDNet to see what shows they have coming up. I think oversaturation is a big part of that.

I'll always be a boxing fan at heart, no matter how much they piss me off with bad judging and superfights that don't take place, because I know there will always be great fights around the corner. I just can't turn my back on the bitch.

I feel the exact same way about everything you just wrote...

just two years I was crazy about MMA...but due to some lack luster performances, mediocre PPV cards...and I think just an overabundance of PPV cards I don't care as much as I use to..

Boxing...I will always tune in for every Pacquiao, PBF, Klitchko fight...
I knew my interest in boxing waned a little bit when I completely missed and forgot about the Margarito vs Cotto fight...I said to myself, "fu*k, how did I forget about that?"
 
There has been a notable wane in MMA, but it waxes as well. When promotions die, that's not a fabricated statistic, that's an actual minimization of the Sport.

USFL, AFL, XFL, and soon to be UFL... yet football is bigger than ever.
 
Boxing has been pronounced dead, or near dead, many times. In my opinion, the current layout, in America at least, makes it different than any other time. For one, the infrastructure is crumbling. Boxing gyms are closing and its being reflected by a poor amateur system.

Also, there is a direct rival to it. Previously when you asked people if they watched boxing, they would never say "no, I watch basketball." Now they either say no altogether or "no, I watch UFC."

Boxing is top heavy, very top heavy. If you were to separate Mayweather and Pacquiao from the rest of the sport, they would be around the 6th most popular sport to watch in America and the rest of the sport wouldn't make the top 15.

Also, it boxing hasn't made a big star from the ground up since Oscar De La Hoya. Mayweather and Pacquiao didn't become mainstream until they beat Oscar, and would not have become mainstream if they didn't fight him. Ortiz, Khan, Bradley, or Martinez can become mainstream stars if they fight and beat Pacquiao or Mayweather, but there is no other foreseeable route they can take to become big pay per view draws at the moment.

Last, the sport is creating new fans at a very slow rate, and it's been that way since they moved to a pay per view model in the early 90s.
 
Wait, what?

FP normally I don't have a problem with your posting, but a lot of that sounds like conjecture. First of all, sure you can say Floyd built a lot of his cross-over appeal on Oscar, but so what? Oscar built his on beating Chavez. Before then Oscar was about where Floyd was before Floyd fought Oscar. Manny was well on his way to being wildly popular anyway, because he kept knocking people down or out, so it's unfair to say that he's ONLY big because he beat Oscar. Both Floyd and Manny also added to their stock by decimating Hatton, who was also popular. That's what Boxing does, stars can form by beating stars. They don't NEED to be made in the Amateurs nowadays, hell Kelly Pavlik is a perfect demonstration of that. He basically skipped the World Amateurs, and still managed to both woo American fans, and win a lineal World Title.

As for the point about Gyms, and MMA as "competition." One point sort of contradicts the other. Look where you're posting. An MMA board, and here we are discussing Boxing, and despite even the "glory days" of this particular sub-forum being "long gone", here we are, plugging away, talkin' 'bout boxin'. Hell wasn't Sherdog Boxing supposed to die with Tam leaving? MMA has spurred a bit of a Boxing renaissance in a lot of ways because MMA fighters are having to learn how to throw hands to survive in their Sport. Now more Boxing trainers have jobs. Having jobs affords them the ability to train more Amateurs (less profitable than Pros), so they work both sides of the fence. I know a lot of Gyms have closed around the nation, but these hybrid Gyms have opened, and actually here in Vegas, more Gyms have sprung up in the past year than in the 5 previous. Because of MMA, at the grass-roots level, there's more demand for learning to Box.

As for separation of classes, hasn't it always been so? Who was on Ali and Frazier's level when Ali and Frazier were on their level? Who was on Leonard and Duran's level when Leonard and Duran were on their level? It's not like there's no other fighters making 7 figures, there are. But the mega-stars are exactly that, MEGA. I'm not sure there's ever been a "super" star, then a "mega super" star, etc.
 
Pac sold 450,000 PPVs as a midget supposedly only known by hardcore boxing fans in the US when he took on the supposedly equally unknown JMM in a rematch when thoughts of a bout with Oscar would have led instead to a bout of uncontrolled laughter. Which, by the way is basically the same number of buys that Jon Jones got for his bout with Shogun and far more than the Edgar/Maynard bout managed...

More, when was the last time the UFC or MMA in general created a true star from the ground up without it being a case of piggybacking on other success? Royce Gracie?

I also do like how this "in the US/America" caveat keeps having to be thrown in. Boxing is a world wide sport, always has been, but perhaps never more so than now. David Haye can sell between 800k and 1,000,000 PPVs taking on the likes of Valuev and Ruiz in the UK alone... and how did he gain his popularity? Beating the massively popular house hold name that is Jean Marc Mormeck?

Despite a slight dip in popularity as their antics jumped the shark the 3 Kamedas (especially now that Tomoki Kameda has come back home) still rule the Japanese combat sports scene with a pretty iron grip, German boxers are still as well known as ever in Germany as well as getting the cream of the Eastern European and Russian crop, Indonesian boxers still draw huge ratings in their homeland etc etc
 
Boxing ain't dead, but it sure is asleep if Pacquiao or Mayweather aren't fighting. Maybe the upcoming Heavyweight fight in July will liven it up a bit.
 
I also do like how this "in the US/America" caveat keeps having to be thrown in. Boxing is a world wide sport, always has been, but perhaps never more so than now. David Haye can sell between 800k and 1,000,000 PPVs taking on the likes of Valuev and Ruiz in the UK alone... and how did he gain his popularity? Beating the massively popular house hold name that is Jean Marc Mormeck?

That's Americans' tendency to think everything that isn't America is irrelevant. I dislike it AS an American, because I fully understand that as an example: the Klitschkos have both the right and ability to basically say "fuck America, we don't need you" and keep Heavyweight Boxing centralized wherever they want it, however they want it. I actually like watching them fight and respect their abilities, so it kinda sucks that HBO claims they can't figure out how to make money off two guys who can fill stadiums.
 
I gave my assessment of boxing in America vs boxing worldwide, because, well I'm from America and that's whats most important to me at the moment. Currently, boxing enjoys A+ production quality on HBO, and pretty good quality on Showtime. If it ever got to the point where HBO decided they were no longer going to carry boxing I would be devastated, and no amount of reading about huge viewing figures in Germany, Mexico, or Asia would fill that void. Content would still be available on the internet, but it wouldn't be the same. Being able to see Berto vs Ortiz on HBO and then Juanma vs Salido on Showtime in the same night was more than I could ever ask for as a boxing fan. I'm just worried that there's a point not far away where these premium channels decide to do something more popular that costs less money to produce. Just like when a good morning talk show host gets shit-canned for Top 40 music.

As for MMA actually being good for boxing, I can't say I totally agree. I agree that people look at it as a valuable component to MMA thus making fighters want to cross train and educate themselves about the sport. For grappling and kickboxing, being looked at as a component of MMA has helped them, but they weren't that popular (compared to other major sports) to begin with. Boxing on the other hand has been more popular than MMA has ever been, so I see being looked at as a component to MMA not necessarily something for boxing to be proud of.
 
I gave my assessment of boxing in America vs boxing worldwide, because, well I'm from America and that's whats most important to me at the moment. Currently, boxing enjoys A+ production quality on HBO, and pretty good quality on Showtime. .



japanese production > RTL production ( germany )............................................................................................................................................................... >american production
 
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