Moving to an intermediate program

[Paedde]

I have following Starting Strength for a little more than 2 months and got my lifts up to the following numbers at a bodyweight of 77kg (started at 71kg):

130kg Squat 3x5
140kg Deadlift 1x5
75kg Bench Press 3x5
50kg Press 3x5
75kg Power Clean 3x3

My progress on squats, bench and press has either stalled or slowed down a lot (just adding one rep each time instead of increasing weight).

I know I am supposed to go through 2-3 deloads first before changing to an intermediate routine, but I also have the problem that the training sessions are taking way too long now with the long breaks I need to take between sets (mainly for squats). I would like to get my workout time back to an hour or less (I lift during lunch), this is also why Texas Method isnt' an option.

I also train BJJ 3-4 times per week and have a competition coming up soon so I will have to deload, I guess that's a good starting point for a new program. I was thinking of starting either Madcows 5x5 or another variation of Bill Starr's heavy/light/medium with ramping sets.

Would it make sense to only progress the squat to ramping sets for now to keep the workout time shorter and deload the lifts or should I just move on to an intermediate program even if it's a little early for that?

I would like to get to a 2 plate bench rather sooner than later while still increasing my other lifts (my lifting goal is a 300-350 wilks) and increasing my bodyweight while staying relatively lean. Any program suggestions for that?

Cheers
Pat

 

[LZD]

Madcow is great for this as you ramp.

HLM programs, like Bill Starr (as you mentioned) and Andy Baker has a recent version are also great.

Texas Method on an Upper/Lower split could work as well. Check the TM ebook for that. It can be programmed for either 4 or 6 days.

 

[DrBdan]

+1 to Madcow. The ramping sets allow you to get through them a bit faster though you still might find it hard to get through everything in one hour. Another option would be 5/3/1 since it's pretty flexible.

 

[Gfreak]

My favorite is Texas Method if you have the recovery time. (I was doing it mon/thursday, while skipping the middle recovery day).

 

[Paedde]

What do you think of this?

=== Heavy day ===
5x5 Squat
5x5 Bench Press
5x5 Deadlift

=== Light day ===
5x5 Squat light
5x5 Press
5x5 Chinups

=== Medium day ===
5x5 Squat medium
5x5 Incline Bench Press
5x3 Power Clean

* Sets are ramped, not across
* First set is 50% of the working weight
* Add roughly 12.5% every set
* Medium squat is 90% of the heavy day
* Light squat is 80% of the heavy day

Would it be better to do light power cleans or power snatches on wednesday? I thought about doing that but I feel the lack of chinups would then disturb the balance of things. Maybe add them after as assistance work?

 

[LZD]

Looks great! Chins could be done bodyweight for high reps for extra hypertrophy to balance things. Plus, that keeps things 'light'

 

[Paedde]

Looks great! Chins could be done bodyweight for high reps for extra hypertrophy to balance things. Plus, that keeps things 'light'

Good idea. Would you keep it at 5 sets or cut it down to 3? And just go to failure on every set?

 

[LZD]

Good idea. Would you keep it at 5 sets or cut it down to 3? And just go to failure on every set?

Rippetoe programs I have seen advocate 3 sets of failure. But ultimately I think it's just about how many reps you get. If in each set you're only doing 5-10 reps, there's no harm in doing more for extra upper back volume. You could even just aim for a certain number total, in as many sets as it takes.

 

[Paedde]

I'll leave a quick update here as I came across my own thread during some research. Maybe it will be useful for someone.

I switched to the HLM for a while and made some decent progress (switched to highbar squat so the number there went down a bit).

But I got into the habit of skipping fridays (it's a day off and my gym is right next to where I work), so I stopped making progress. I tried to fix this by doing the 2 day split from the FAQ instead on mon/thu but my numbers kept going down instead of up.

My next attempt was an intensity/volume approach that I'm still doing.

Monday: (go for a new 3-5 RM)
Squat
Bench
Power Clean or DB Row

Wednesday:
4x6 Bench
4x6 DB Row
2x15 Lying Triceps Extension
2x15 Cable Row
2x15 Wide Bench
2x15 Face pulls

Thursday:
4x6 Squat
2x Improvised GHR
Ab stuff

Friday: (Can do that at home)
4x6 Overhead Press
4x6 Chinups

Every so often I switch to 3x8 instead of 4x6.

Current numbers are:
Squat 135kg x 2 (Started at 110kg after switching to high bar...)
Bench 90kg x 3
Deadlift 170kg x 1 (but with oly shoes instead of flat)

HLM definitely works if you don't skip workouts... I'll consider it again if I can find a way to work it conveniently into my schedule. I was a bit disappointed with the 2 day split, I think it wasn't enough volume.

The current program works but I'm sure it could be structured better if I had access to proper equipment on friday. But as long as I'm making progress I can't really complain.

 

[LZD]

No. TM or 531.

Or Candito's linear progression. It's almost similar to your 4 day program but probably more well thought out. You can download for free

 

[NurseKnuckles]

You should be able to get through the work sets of madcow in less than 1 hour easily for at least the first 6 weeks. I'm sure you'd be able to stretch that past 6 and 8 weeks for the first go.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

What do you think of this?

=== Heavy day ===
5x5 Squat
5x5 Bench Press
5x5 Deadlift

=== Light day ===
5x5 Squat light
5x5 Press
5x5 Chinups

=== Medium day ===
5x5 Squat medium
5x5 Incline Bench Press
5x3 Power Clean

* Sets are ramped, not across
* First set is 50% of the working weight
* Add roughly 12.5% every set
* Medium squat is 90% of the heavy day
* Light squat is 80% of the heavy day

Would it be better to do light power cleans or power snatches on wednesday? I thought about doing that but I feel the lack of chinups would then disturb the balance of things. Maybe add them after as assistance work?

Instead of making shit up yourself. download the Madcow spreasheet. It will save time and effort and its probably the best intermediate for dummies out there...

 

[Paedde]

No. TM or 531.

No. I lift during lunch break and I have to be out of the gym in an hour (including shower + changing). It also doesn't fit into my weekly schedule and it's too much volume for me.

And 531, why would I just go to a 4 week progression when I can still make progress on a weekly progression?

Or Candito's linear progression. It's almost similar to your 4 day program but probably more well thought out. You can download for free

Had a look. But I don't think another beginner program will work. I also have about 9 hours of BJJ training a week and I had some recovery issues in the past. Especially heavy deadlifts have a tendency to fuck up a week of training.

And also I don't have the equipment available on fridays. I only have a barbell + a pullup bar at home.

Instead of making shit up yourself. download the Madcow spreasheet. It will save time and effort and its probably the best intermediate for dummies out there...

I did not make that up. It's in Practical Programming/on Andy Baker's blog. I had a quick go at Madcow before I started the HLM. I did not like it too much, every day felt like a heavy day (Deadlift on Wed and the set of 8 on Fri).


Where do you guys actually see the problem with what I am doing at the moment? My bench was stuck at about 80kg for over a year. I finally made some progress with this program. All the lifts are going up and I'm getting a little more upper body work so that I can balance upper/lower out.

I'm also not looking to become a powerlifter. Once I get to 100/150/200 I'm happy with maintaining it.

Of course I'm open to suggestions if you see a better/faster way to get to those numbers. But I also don't want to ruin my BJJ training or make the lifting the middle point of my life. Right now I can work out Mo-Th 45mins each during lunch and on Friday at home with a barbell + pullup bar.

 

[Paedde]

Who the fuck is Andy Baker? Practical Programming is 5x5 for the deadlift? Since when?

5/3/1 is "just progression every 4 weeks"? Goddamn you are ignorant.

"Once you get to 150?" Your 1RM for the squat right now is (allegedly) 158. Not bad to achieve Advanced status for your BW after only training 2 months. :wink:

You "don't want to be a powerlifter" but cite a Wilks score and the desire to "even out the upper body" yet want BJJ to be a priority and worry about volume.

TS is either trolling, lying, or just stupid. Theory is he's asked questions about strength training before but doesn't want to do SS so he slips in his thinly-veiled bro split and seeks its validation from strangers.

Go troll somewhere else

 

[lpaulgib]

Follow the fucking program. You should barely be getting into some good intensity at two months into Starting Strength. From 5x5 then cut back to 5x3 and then again to 5x3 ramped. Each of those progressions is after 2 deloads.

Stop changing the programs. Don't quit after two months. Let it run its course, then switch to a slower progression.

If your goal is strength for BJJ the last thing you want to do is prioritize a flat bench. You should want your priority to be with squats, deadlifts, and power cleans. Those are the lifts that turn you into a powerful grappler.

 

[Paedde]

Follow the fucking program. You should barely be getting into some good intensity at two months into Starting Strength. From 5x5 then cut back to 5x3 and then again to 5x3 ramped. Each of those progressions is after 2 deloads.

Stop changing the programs. Don't quit after two months. Let it run its course, then switch to a slower progression.

If your goal is strength for BJJ the last thing you want to do is prioritize a flat bench. You should want your priority to be with squats, deadlifts, and power cleans. Those are the lifts that turn you into a powerful grappler.

The thread is from last April in case you did not notice. And if you read carefully, I posted the reasons why I wanted to switch program even though I could have grinded it out for longer.

Are you maybe confusing SS with Stronglifts? SS never has 5x5 or ramping afaik.

Flat bench is important for BJJ (in addition to the lifts you listed).

My other lifts are pretty ok for my weight, I notice a big difference in my ability to keep posture and I can generate good pressure by driving off my legs thanks to deadlifts and squats.

But I could use some more upper body strength, especially for creating space under side control, stiff-arming to prevent a pass when I don't start with a fully extended arms and other scenarios like that. Increasing my bench should help with that.

 

[Paedde]

Don't forget the 3x3 power cleans directed in Starting Strength and 5x5 deadlifts in Practical Programming.

I'm still perplexed why a lifter at Advanced status is still asking for a linear progression program.

Oh no. I only did 3x3 instead of 5x3. That must have completely messed up the program...

You are right on the deadlifts though. I always thought it's 5x5 ramped, but it's only 1 set.

And where do you get the advanced status from? Definitely not from my numbers...

 

[oyaji poi]

I have following Starting Strength for a little more than 2 months and got my lifts up to the following numbers at a bodyweight of 77kg (started at 71kg):

130kg Squat 3x5
140kg Deadlift 1x5
75kg Bench Press 3x5
50kg Press 3x5
75kg Power Clean 3x3

My progress on squats, bench and press has either stalled or slowed down a lot (just adding one rep each time instead of increasing weight).

I know I am supposed to go through 2-3 deloads first before changing to an intermediate routine, but I also have the problem that the training sessions are taking way too long now with the long breaks I need to take between sets (mainly for squats). I would like to get my workout time back to an hour or less (I lift during lunch), this is also why Texas Method isnt' an option.

I also train BJJ 3-4 times per week and have a competition coming up soon so I will have to deload, I guess that's a good starting point for a new program. I was thinking of starting either Madcows 5x5 or another variation of Bill Starr's heavy/light/medium with ramping sets.

Would it make sense to only progress the squat to ramping sets for now to keep the workout time shorter and deload the lifts or should I just move on to an intermediate program even if it's a little early for that?

I would like to get to a 2 plate bench rather sooner than later while still increasing my other lifts (my lifting goal is a 300-350 wilks) and increasing my bodyweight while staying relatively lean. Any program suggestions for that?

Cheers
Pat

1. 130kg 3x5 squat and a 140kg deadlift? After two months at that bodyweight having those numbers is usually an indication that your squat is not legit unless you are 5'4" and really suck at deadlifting.


2. If you are pursuing a competitive sport then the weight training programme should accommodate that and supplement your training. Madcow, TM, and all of the other weekly "second stage" linear programmes were not designed for people also training another sport - the assumption behind them is that weight training is the main activity you will be recovering from. They are not flexible programmes.

Therefore I would recommend something that accommodates your main activity. Westside for Skinny Bastards WS4SB was designed for people who want to get stronger but also need to target specific attributes (be it more pulling exercises, more explosive or speed strength training, and also most importantly regular skill development which can be quite intensive - such as BJJ practice).

There are Max Effort Upper and Lower days, Repetition Upper, and Dynamic Lower. So you can train 2, 3, or 4 days a week by doing each separate or combining them. I do ME Upper and DE Lower on Monday, ME Lower Thu and RE Upper Friday. Sprints are done on Mon or Tues and Sat or Sun.

You can also combine ME Upper/DE Lower and ME Lower/RE Upper if you want to lift twice a week.

 

[LZD]

Who the fuck is Andy Baker?

Who the fuck are you? Random admin comes in, doesn't know who Andy Baker is, calls TS fucking ignorant.

Andy Baker was trained by Rip, now he trains other people with Rip. He recently blogged about HLM in detail, a program covered briefly in PP, based on Bill Starr's work.

It's another option other than the TM post SS.

Paedde, it is (roughly) 5x5 ramped. You hit 1x5 on DL as a top set. You might use roughly 4 warmup sets, or however many you need. You might also warm up with 5s then 3s maybe a double or single as you get nearer to the top set of 5.

 

[DrBdan]

Who is this Khan Rising guy who just randomly appeared and started giving advice? What's your background? Training history? You should start a log.

Paedde, what is your BJJ schedule like?