- Joined
- Feb 15, 2011
- Messages
- 15,426
- Reaction score
- 7,500
A brisk walk should keep Maori assailants from catching you
Most Important Aspect for Self Defense Striking
- Thread starter SummerStriker
- Start date
A brisk walk should keep Maori assailants from catching you
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 4,318
- Reaction score
- 0
^^^ NO.1. Strangely enough, isn't this the same dilemma experience by Shotokan karate MMA stylist, Lyoto Machida....
>>>> His loses against all the top-tier UFC LHW's were the inability to infight....
^^^ NO. 2. My answer would be how does traditional karate teach you to (1) defeat the physically superior opponent...; (2) What is the most efficient way to defeat an opponent...?
^^^ NO. 3. I think the key point, and other striking posters have broached this..., was his ability to "hit & run," his inability to step-in & exchange....
In all fairness to your failed opponent, I think it highly improbable he could "back you up," and remain in the realm of sporting-style striking....
^^^ I entirely agree with your premise...
KarateStylist
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2003
- Messages
- 6,799
- Reaction score
- 0
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 34,972
- Reaction score
- 18,273
Movement is as important in street fighting or self defense as it is in sport fighting. The applications and situations for each might be different in certain scenerios but to say what I have bolded in your post above is wrong. Foot work to avoid multiple attackers, avoid obstacles around you with which you might be pinned down to (trash cans, parked cars etc) and uneven turf (concrete to gravel, gravel to grass etc) are all things to take into consideration if the situation has come to a fight.
Learning to fight in a closed, confined space is of utmost necessity in the street fight as many fights begin at close quarters with someone in your face. The likelihood of having to fight confined is very high. Someone follows you into an alley, bathroom at a bar, a parking lot between cars, etc are all realistic situation.
If you find yourself in a corner, against a wall, etc in a street fight there are some principals I would consider depending on the emotional content of the fight. As with all street fighting, the simplest technique is the best.
Working from the notion that this is a drunken brawl where doing maximum harm to the attacker is not ideal, simple working for a clinch of some sort and spinning out of the corner and putting your attacker into it is ideal so you can disengage.
Should that fail or it escalates further, then you should be able to neutralize the situation with some dirty boxing, thai clinch or even some Greco if you prefer. Stiff elbows, hooks, uppercuts and knees should do the trick to take the will to fight out of most attackers and minimize damage to yourself. I would maybe give some attention to controller their wrists as to avoid them pulling out a knife and stabbing you from the clinch.
If your intent or need is to inflict maximum damage, or you are out matched technically or by size you should consider true self defense tactics. Begin kneeing to the groin, sticking thumbs in eyes, stomping the instep or biting. Hair pulling can be used to control very well from your back being in in the corner. If trapped, head butting can help break an opponent off of you and to get him to back up. If outmatched or out muscled, a simple groin or eye strike should cause enough pain or distraction to allow escape or follow up with more conventional striking.
But from a self defense standpoint, being against the wall may be to our advantage. If you are faced with multiple attackers and the aspect of escape is not available, the wall or corner may help keep you from being surrounded and to keep your attackers in front of you where you can see them to cover up and defend more. For anecdotal evidence of this, refer to the story of a street fight in Europe with Chuck Liddell stopping multiple attackers in this fashion and the same story in which Lee Murray allegedly pummeled Tito Ortiz.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 4,318
- Reaction score
- 0
^^^ Come across as a darn good self-defense instructor....
KarateStylist
KarateStylist
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 11,680
- Reaction score
- 5,756
^^ I got ya. Great post. Thank you.
Noblet10
Purple Belt
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2012
- Messages
- 1,561
- Reaction score
- 0
Well, in any fight or self defense situation, you should use whatever natural attributes you have. You used you size, and he used his speed and agility. The difference between your sparring and a self defense situation is the multiple variables that come available in a real life fight. The smaller attacker could choose to go for your groin, throat, and other vulnerable areas to prevent you from closing him in. He could also use improvised weapons or other things. Also, I'm sure it was more of an agreement to not go behind the weights or heavy bags. I'm sure in a real fight he could have used them to his advantage.
The fact is it's extremely hard to simulate a real life fight scenario. Even NHB isn't a real life fight scenario, because it's in a ring or cage typically. There is a set environment.
The fact is it's extremely hard to simulate a real life fight scenario. Even NHB isn't a real life fight scenario, because it's in a ring or cage typically. There is a set environment.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 34,972
- Reaction score
- 18,273
Thank you KarateStylist. I am not the best fighter and will never be a pro sport fighter, so I have devoted much of my attention to the place where I will be most likely to have to employ all the things I have learned through my sport training experience: defending myself.
I would also add that to piggy back off what I think KS was getting at with his post above, your sparring partner, Summerstriker, is already at a disadvantage in the infighting because his sport and training only account for having copious amounts of space to work with.
Also I forgot to promote the effectiveness of the good, old fashioned push kick/teep to the above on how to escape the wall/corner along with use of the headbutt for infighting.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 4,318
- Reaction score
- 0
^^^ YES. May I turn back to your core T. question...?
----- You posed your partner as a seeming "knockdown" karateka, who used what I call the "hit & run" strategy, clearly conventional by Shotokan, et al....
Here's a quote from another Karateka poster, a self-professed knockdown guy.... I'll proclaim the relevance below....
^^^ He was responding to a Boxing / MT MMA stylist who held traditional karate training as impractical & a waste of time.... though that's not the core premise of your T, I want to point out how his answer relates to karate self-defense....
Before I do that though, I want to point out 2 misconceptions, the first one is Chachkiller's understanding of traditional karate,,, he presumably makes from his luv for "knockdown" and full-contact >>> Mistake No. 1.
Mistake No. 1. The highlight says that Machida modified his Shotokan [sic] fighting style to stop aiming for the body and [sic] aim at the head with a punch....
I believe Lyoto's Shotokan kumite vids show him (& his opponents) using head punches all along....
Mistake No. 2. Somehow the fact that KYO or similar "knockdown" karate styles prohibit head punches during full-contact free sparring kumite, has been translated into karateka don't train, or don't know how, or can't punch to head.... This is a complete misconception....
^^^ Chachkiller points this out clearly in his concluding sentence in the highlight....
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Where am I going??? The fact that people viewed karate through the boxing or MMA lens, or alternatively, the fact that people in karate, particularly "knockdown" versions, believe that somehow---in order to fight effectively---you have to dramatically change your karate base from some popular conventional sporting version..... is false, as Chach attests....
The same holds true for karate infighting.... Because Shotokan's kumite competitive convention employs the "distance fighting"---the experience with your opponent....
The traditional karate base specifically trains exchange fighting....
The fact that your "Knockdown karate" opponent relied on the Shotokan-like competitive "distancing formula" shows he did not train the Shotokan traditional karate base, which emphasizes in-fighting kumite very much so....
Both on the head punch issue & the type of fighting-zone strategy,,, like kata, the MMA World's understanding of traditional karate's breath & depth is one of half-knowledge and misconception....
KarateStylist
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 11,680
- Reaction score
- 5,756
hey KS, I just finished reading your book. Are you Duk Sung Son?
Just thought I'd slip this recommendation in here for you. It's great.
"The reader may have noticed that so far in this chapter, everything we have discussed has been in the head. Perhaps the reader expected the first chapter about actual fighting to be all about blood and thunder with much discussion about lethal techniques and killing blows. Well, it is not, as you have seen. The reason that it is not is that Tae Kwon Do, even more than most physical activities, depends to a very large extent upon what goes on in the mind."
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 11,680
- Reaction score
- 5,756
by the way, awesome long post up there.
Push kick, headbutt, clinch and spin - is that the perfect trinity of self defense striking? I think it could be. (;
No doubt about his training, in my opinion. I know a number of karate teachers, KS included, that believe one step drills will translate into action. If that is the case, I wonder how much of it has to do with having the nuts to start hitting the other guy first. What I've not seen is someone who has a certain character sparring, suddenly generating new effective moves when he starts losing, unless those moves were encouraged by the rules used during the bulk of his sparring. In fighting is a big part of some of the MMA schools I've gone to. Sometimes we spar with the rules that one person has to be on the wall, no kicking, and the only moving around can be during a clinch - and you just fight from it. Drills like that, sparring style drills, gave me the capacity to do some in fighting because on my own initiative, I would not have developed much ability, always forcing an outfight and either clinching totally or losing at close range.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 11,680
- Reaction score
- 5,756
Woo, good catch, he told me he never did traditional kata or one steps, just hitting and sparring. There are big gaps in the guy's knowledge, despite his large amount of sparring experience. His teachers felt they were being very practical.
And I agree, there is more to karate than most people know. I think karate has done a lot of putting a bad foot forward by generating a lot of shitty fighters, but obviously the real deal is out there.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 34,972
- Reaction score
- 18,273
I dunno if I would limit myself to just those three things, but headbutt to push kick would definitely be a worthwhile combination.
Also being mindful of the opponent headbutting you as well might be a factor on how you address the situation. Obviously that comes down to personal style: be the first to get the headbutt, or control the guy in a clinch by controlling the head to prevent one. Headbutt is an excellent tactic for drawing first blood as well (by that I mean being the first to strike). Generic tough guy is in your face, yelling, cursing and nose to nose? Take a short step back, headbutt, fire off a kick (leg kick, push kick, groin kick). Situation could be over right there.
Headbutt to cross as well, however I am exploring the options of avoiding bare handed face strikes. Nothing worse than beating the shit out of a guy only to end up with a nasty infection when you cut your knuckles on his teeth. But I have no evidence on how common or likely that could be to make a decision one way or the other.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2012
- Messages
- 11,680
- Reaction score
- 5,756
I'm off for the day to enjoy the holiday, so merry Christmas.
I train with a bunch of bouncers. They fight about once a week. In the last few months one guy both push kicked a dude with a knife and knocked him out with a cross, and later got an infected knuckle (disgusting) from punching a guy in the teeth.
In the same time period, another bouncer knocked one guy out with a lead uppercut and another guy with a rear leg roundhouse to the face on a wet parking lot, neither hit with any setup at all.
Anicdotal evidence is weird.
I train with a bunch of bouncers. They fight about once a week. In the last few months one guy both push kicked a dude with a knife and knocked him out with a cross, and later got an infected knuckle (disgusting) from punching a guy in the teeth.
In the same time period, another bouncer knocked one guy out with a lead uppercut and another guy with a rear leg roundhouse to the face on a wet parking lot, neither hit with any setup at all.
Anicdotal evidence is weird.
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2012
- Messages
- 22,287
- Reaction score
- 10,790
What would likely have happened in all the cases you mentioned SS is that they struck first. The first rule of a good self defence, when avoidance and de-escalation has failed is a good offence.
Defense is harder as its reactive.
Like I said before, the most important aspect of self defence striking is the mind. The actual striking is a secondary. Deception, surprise and using ones strengths on weak points is the way, as said previously.
Your sport fight with karate boy is not applicable as an analogy for a SD situation. It's like comparing kata to sparring.
And its Doormen not bouncer (in the UK
If I was the smaller fighter, I'd punch the neck, nose, kick the knee in the side, eye poke, or pick up an object and club with it etc. Anything to stay at range. You get in close as a smaller opponent and their strength wins.
Merry Xmas.
Defense is harder as its reactive.
Like I said before, the most important aspect of self defence striking is the mind. The actual striking is a secondary. Deception, surprise and using ones strengths on weak points is the way, as said previously.
Your sport fight with karate boy is not applicable as an analogy for a SD situation. It's like comparing kata to sparring.
And its Doormen not bouncer (in the UK
If I was the smaller fighter, I'd punch the neck, nose, kick the knee in the side, eye poke, or pick up an object and club with it etc. Anything to stay at range. You get in close as a smaller opponent and their strength wins.
Merry Xmas.
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2011
- Messages
- 4,318
- Reaction score
- 0
^^^ I looked into your recommendation briefly.... I was not aware of this publication
^^^ Most of my learning,,,, despite my academic bent.... is from empirical (actual hands-on training...) study....
^^^ Although Tang Soo Do is far from the most sophisticated traditional martial art.... or even karate style.... and although I had trained for several years prior to taking up Tang Soo Do.... Tang Soo Do is where I came to see really what this meant in terms of how the karate training was driven by the mind....
^^^ Moo Duk Kwan, my lineal branch of Korean TMA, I read was one of the five confederation of Korean styles once under, the above-named leader of Korean Martial Arts....
KarateStylist
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2004
- Messages
- 21,025
- Reaction score
- 7,436
No, the main reason that a martial artist loses against an untrained fighter is the element of surprise. In a street fight there is no referee to start the fight, it begins with the first strike. If you don't see it coming it can end either with that first KO shot or the barrage of shots that follow. That's the key to winning for an untrained fighter, pure aggression and surprise. If the trained fighter survives the initial onslaught then 9 times out of 10 he will win.
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2004
- Messages
- 21,025
- Reaction score
- 7,436
Exactly this. I lost a 'fight' about this time last year. I lost because I didn't even know I was in the fight and got sucker punched in the side of the face by someone running at me. Years of training mattered for nothing in that situation. Even situational awareness wouldn't have helped much because it was so unexpected (I was talking to a girl who as it turned out happened to be his girlfriend). First I knew what was happening was in a heap on the ground, never even saw my attacker.
