Most complete takedown style/combination.

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Ryanjudoka, Apr 13, 2008.

  1. Ryanjudoka

    Ryanjudoka Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Roseburg Oregon
    Hey guys,
    I have been doing submission wrestling and Jiu Jitsu tournaments for 3 years now, and I have noticed a major lack in takedown skills. I was all league wrestler in HS and have a brown belt in Kodokan Judo. I have only been to a few BJJ classes, but why is it that they seem to put so little emphasis on them. A lot of the tournaments takedowns are worth substantial points, especially ones that leave you outside of your opponents guard. When I was first starting out I won the NAGA's with takedowns and hip control.
    If a BJJ practitioner would explain this to me I would appreciate it.

    side note: We arent a typical Judo School our ground work is very well reguarded we have a 50/50 realtionship with throws and submissions.
     
  2. blanko

    blanko Guest

    why? because in all honesty it's not that hard to take someone down unless they have done wrestling/judo and if they do take you down... you are where you want anyway.
     
  3. Ryanjudoka

    Ryanjudoka Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Roseburg Oregon
    being bottom side control or mounted is where you would want to be? seems like 3 giving up an automatic 2-4 points is not a terrific idea unless you are sure that your sweeps and subs are waaaaay better than your opponent.
     
  4. Rotaryengine

    Rotaryengine Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    269
    Likes Received:
    0
    You could say the same thing about Bjj its real easy to sub somone if you just know the basic subs, the reason you train them is so you can do it better as well as against skilled opponents.
     
  5. judogido

    judogido Aussie!, Aussie!, Aussie! ...

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,741
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Down Under
    Takedowns can be a real benefit to a BJJer. However, it isn't essential.

    Same with judo. A strong ground came can be a real benefit, but you can get away with a crap ground game if your standup is very good (in a competition sense).

    I think it also depends on the instructor's background/preference also.

    I mean - a strong omoplata is great to have - but if it is not really a favourite of the instructor, he will not really teach it past the basics - but maybe focus more on other things like sweeps if that's what he is good at.

    This is why I like to cross-train, both at other clubs and in BJJ.

    You get a bigger cross-section of styles to pick and choose from.
     
  6. Slithers

    Slithers Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Cali

    you could say the same thing in reverse for most judo clubs. there is a lack of ground fighting while there is a heavy emphasis on takedowns.

    it is what it is. like you mentioned, some judo clubs are more balanced with their approach. Many BJJ schools focus heavily on ground game, while others have a more balanced approach, as well.

    Are you going to go to a judo tournament to see top notch groundwork? probably not. The same goes for BJJ in reverse. You don't really go there to see the best takedowns.

    You won naga with takedowns, some could win judo tournaments with ground work. (bj penn as a white belt?)

    my 2
     
  7. Ryanjudoka

    Ryanjudoka Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Roseburg Oregon
    I wasnt trying to attack BJJ I just think that a more balanced approach would significantly benifit its practitioners, the same is true of judo schools.

    ground work in a judo tournament is a lot harder to get a chance to use 30 seconds in guard is the most you will get before a stand up...its irratating haha
     
  8. Prokofievian

    Prokofievian Silver Belt Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    10,352
    Likes Received:
    4,043
    Location:
    Helsinki
    I have yet to come up with a reason for how a good standup game could hurt a BJJ practicioner. It is for this reason that I plan to attend Judo, and later wrestling.

    I can only see a benefit.
     
  9. Slithers

    Slithers Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Cali
    its all about rules.

    in judo tourneys you can stall on the ground to get back up to your feet.

    in bjj tourneys you can just sit down and butt scoot, nullifying the other guy's takedowns.

    quite simply, sport competitors take advantage of the rule set for the sport they compete in.
     
  10. Ryanjudoka

    Ryanjudoka Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Roseburg Oregon
    butt scooting is outlawed now in big tournaments...it is deemed stalling in the rules of grapplers quest (grapplers.com)
     
  11. Slithers

    Slithers Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Cali
    grapplers.com is only one tournament producer.

    the biggest BJJ tourneys (mundials, panams, etc) still allow butt scooting AFAIK.

    I will say that if you do submission grappling it is in your best interest to learn takedowns. though.
     
  12. blanko

    blanko Guest

    meaning you're on the ground. Would a bjj perfer to be in side maunt rather then get side mounted? YEa.
     
  13. ShanghaiBJJ

    ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    3,319
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Shanghai
    I think it comes down to time.

    BJJ and Judo are both very intricate arts with a lifetime of learning.

    So usually clubs will pick either the groundphase or the standup phase as an emphasis to really excell there.
    This can be due to preference, competition focus or the instructor's own skillset.
    I personally think this is quite alright.
    You have the BJJ ground-specialists and the Judo TD experts.

    I believe it to be more beneficial to train let's say 3-4 days of straight BJJ and 1-2 days of Judo then to train at a BJJ school with a 50/50 focus.

    Even if you are lucky to have an instructor that can teach you both equally well (which is RARE) it always becomes a conflict of interest in a sens.

    Let's take sparring. We BJJers usually take the nancy-route of starting on the knees.

    This means we spend 100% of the sparring working ground techniques.

    If you always start standing, maybe both are equally good/shit on their feet. Then it might take 2 minutes to get the ground action going.
    Or maybe one guy keeps standing up, because he wants to work his standup. Then it becomes a Judo match anyway.

    So I say it is GREAT that BJJ focuses on groundwork and it is GREAT that Judo focuses on TD and their own non-BJJ style of Newaza.

    Thus if you wanna excel at both or need it for competition, go to your local Judo Club and learn it from the experts.

    There are no 2 arts that combine more perfectly then BJJ and Judo.

    My 17 and 1/2 cents.
     
  14. ShanghaiBJJ

    ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    3,319
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Shanghai
    ^^^^

    I personally think this is one of the best posts ever made on sherdog.

    Thank you ShanghaiBJJ!
     
  15. blanko

    blanko Guest

    did you just big up yourself?
     
  16. ShanghaiBJJ

    ShanghaiBJJ Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    3,319
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Shanghai
    :icon_chee

    Everyone needs some self-love sometimes...
     
  17. stlnl2

    stlnl2 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    864
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Clayton, NC


    My question is, what division were you competing in, and how many guys did you beat via submission?
     
  18. Reveen

    Reveen Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Messages:
    1,875
    Likes Received:
    152
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    You have a point especially considering that Helio is a highly ranked judoka, not to mention the numerous videos floating around of other Gracies competing in Judo tournaments. I've never understood the "I only do this" mentality: if you can add another dimension to your game that the other guy doesnt have, you'll obviously increase your chances of beating him.
     
  19. yodaman

    yodaman Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,735
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    The emphasis on groundwork unfortunately tends to de-emphasize takedowns in pure BJJ. This is why I crosstrain judo and wrestling with another coach and why we do shot drills at the start of class.

    I think Geoff Thompson put it best in one of his books, that all the ground skills are useless unless you can get your opponent there.
     
  20. Mr. Switch

    Mr. Switch TALLY HO!

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    Messages:
    580
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    London.
    I've never heard that one before... :rolleyes:

    I think it's prob fair enough to say that good takedowns and hip control will probably stand you in good stead at lower levels of submission based grappling but if we're talking about higher levels... well just look at the higher level grappling comps and tell me that it always ends once one guy gets side control.

    Second- even with a good takedown there's not a 100% guarantee that you'll always end up in side.

    Third- with all that said takedowns to superior positions would obviously be a head start.

    Fourth- Both are really interesting and fun to train- which is the main thing for the majority of us- who probably WON'T be winning the mundials any time soon... So you might as well train both. Ah- not long now until I can start Judo...
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.