MMA wrestling is different than wrestling

[Steve08]

All sports are silly outside the confines of their rules. Basketball would be silly if the net were a foot off the ground.

Also, if you're thinking self defense, I'd imagine a lot more fights occur in rooms with walls than in open fields.

You are right, of course. I mostly just hate Jones. Bah. Damn it all

You should try it sometime. You're very, very wrong.

Well yeah, I can only do it in relaxed drilling, but I also suck and have a bad tendency to bend forward when level changing. I am starting to eliminate it though. Just gotta keep training

 

[Was Exiled]

You should try it sometime. You're very, very wrong.

This, I think Jon just makes it look easy.

 

[GMathewsMMA]

A combination of the cage and wrestling with someone the size of Jones, probably changes things quite a bit, especially when Cormier is only like 5'11. Jones is also still developing his skills, and is just starting to hit his stride in many areas. He probably surprises his opponents each time they face him, as he comes out with a larger/different arsenal than all of his previous fights.

 

[vcmmafan]

Jones is only going to get better. Jeez the guys only 27. Didn't he also say he was going to start training more during the "off season" now

I don't even like the guy.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Damn it allWell yeah, I can only do it in relaxed drilling, but I also suck and have a bad tendency to bend forward when level changing. I am starting to eliminate it though. Just gotta keep training

I wasn't trying to be an ass, it's just not as easy as it looks. And you really don't need to level change as much up against the cage as you do in open space because you cannot drive through the guy (there's a cage in the way). What Jones did, basically bending over and scooping up DC's legs without a level change, is a really smart way of executing cage TDs because the cage prevents a real sprawl. Plus, most people have a tendency to lean back against the cage which makes the duck and grab style of double leg even more effective. Judo double legs were always demonstrated in this style, mostly because the high stances of Judo and the fact that Judoka don't usually pressure forward as much as wrestlers make the dynamics similar to a fighter up against the cage.

I don't like Jones either, but the man is a master of MMA wrestling against the cage.

 

[Steve08]

I wasn't trying to be an ass, it's just not as easy as it looks.

oh it's all good, if I was offended then I would have said as much. I know it's not... I just wish it was :icon_sad:

What Jones did, basically bending over and scooping up DC's legs without a level change, is a really smart way of executing cage TDs because the cage prevents a real sprawl. Plus, most people have a tendency to lean back against the cage which makes the duck and grab style of double leg even more effective. Judo double legs were always demonstrated in this style, mostly because the high stances of Judo and the fact that Judoka don't usually pressure forward as much as wrestlers make the dynamics similar to a fighter up against the cage.

I don't like Jones either, but the man is a master of MMA wrestling against the cage.

I see. So just to be clear, my gym doesn't have a cage so much as a wall with those "cushions" (they're like training mats stuck to the wall) plus a section of fence, but I ought to work on this and I think the idea remains the same as long as the guy's back is to something; mobility is dramatically reduced. Correct if I'm wrong, though. Anyway...

One thing I'm curious about is head position when doing something like that: when pushing his back to the wall/cage, I was taught to cross face him by keeping my head underneath/level with his jaw, which seems good for control, but would I need to give that up for these scoop doubles?

Also, is kata guruma the judo double leg of which you speak?

 

[rmongler]

You should have mentioned that last point to Cormier, he could've used the tip.

gsp would have liked the same trick against hendricks.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

I can't believe this is a new concept to people. Of course there's not a 100% crossover. Of course there is a very large crossover. Setups and cage wrestling are the big difference, and cage wrestling is a big part of MMA. These are distinct MMA skill sets that have to be trained. You don't wrestle along the cage the same way you wrestle in open space. You don't clinch and pummel the same. You don't stand the same. You don't distribute your weight the same.

 

[Uchi Mata]

oh it's all good, if I was offended then I would have said as much. I know it's not... I just wish it was :icon_sad:I see. So just to be clear, my gym doesn't have a cage so much as a wall with those "cushions" (they're like training mats stuck to the wall) plus a section of fence, but I ought to work on this and I think the idea remains the same as long as the guy's back is to something; mobility is dramatically reduced. Correct if I'm wrong, though. Anyway...

I've practiced it almost exclusively up against mats on the edge of the wall. You get the same effect.

One thing I'm curious about is head position when doing something like that: when pushing his back to the wall/cage, I was taught to cross face him by keeping my head underneath/level with his jaw, which seems good for control, but would I need to give that up for these scoop doubles?

No, that control is good. It means he's postured up and you're closer to his legs without his head in the way.

Also, is kata guruma the judo double leg of which you speak?

Morote gari:



Very similar to how Bones does it up against the cage. In both cases it works because of uke's upright posture and lack of strong forward pressure, though again the addition of the cage makes a classic sprawl hard if not impossible.

 

[Thrawn33]

I can't believe this is a new concept to people. Of course there's not a 100% crossover. Of course there is a very large crossover. Setups and cage wrestling are the big difference, and cage wrestling is a big part of MMA. These are distinct MMA skill sets that have to be trained. You don't wrestle along the cage the same way you wrestle in open space. You don't clinch and pummel the same. You don't stand the same. You don't distribute your weight the same.

I have to believe its more the rabid fans/haters on either side looking to twist the knife, or people who just don't know shot about wrestling.

 

[Ethan]

oh it's all good, if I was offended then I would have said as much. I know it's not... I just wish it was :icon_sad:I see. So just to be clear, my gym doesn't have a cage so much as a wall with those "cushions" (they're like training mats stuck to the wall) plus a section of fence, but I ought to work on this and I think the idea remains the same as long as the guy's back is to something; mobility is dramatically reduced. Correct if I'm wrong, though. Anyway...

One thing I'm curious about is head position when doing something like that: when pushing his back to the wall/cage, I was taught to cross face him by keeping my head underneath/level with his jaw, which seems good for control, but would I need to give that up for these scoop doubles?

Also, is kata guruma the judo double leg of which you speak?

Morote Gari. Kata Guruma is a fireman's carry set up kind of like a single leg.

 

[youngsteinel]

The ridiculous bent over stance doesn't help at all for fighting. The most successful guys are Greco - teach a Greco guy a blast double and he's ready to go.

Uhhh.. then he gets taken down at will because he never learned to sprawl.

 

[ThatBJJGuy]

wrestling is so over rated in mma

wrestlers struggle without the cage.... just watch them in a ring

 

[youngsteinel]

wrestling is so over rated in mma

wrestlers struggle without the cage.... just watch them in a ring

Yeah, it's extremely overrated. Only 6 of 8 male champions (7 of 8 earlier in 2014) wrestled competitively in folkstyle wrestling. 4 wrestled in college, 2 in high school. I will counter the numbers argument, I supremely doubt 75% of the UFC males on the roster started with a wrestling background. This is not a knock on any martial arts, it's just pretty agreed by people in the knowhow of MMA that wrestling is one of the best, if not the best background for MMA.

 

[ThatBJJGuy]

Yeah, it's extremely overrated. Only 6 of 8 male champions (7 of 8 earlier in 2014) wrestled competitively in folkstyle wrestling. 4 wrestled in college, 2 in high school. I will counter the numbers argument, I supremely doubt 75% of the UFC males on the roster started with a wrestling background. This is not a knock on any martial arts, it's just pretty agreed by people in the knowhow of MMA that wrestling is one of the best, if not the best background for MMA.

the rules are designed for wrestlers in a cage that favors wrestlers...

put them in a ring under pride fc rule....true mma rules not watered down UFC rules

 

[Linthec]

Distance is different and stance are different. That's one of the big reasons kick boxers don't translate well: they focus less on movement and more on trading toe to toe.

Wrestling takes place in a tie up with no strikes and no wall. So if you are quick on your feet, can take longer shots than would work in a wrestling match, can wrestle upright, and have good pushing skills than you should have good mma wrestling. Those things dont matter nearly as much in wrestling.

 

[SFCFighter]

not that wall-wrestling is easy.. but finishing a double leg with the lock hands, scoop and pull off the cage is WAY, WAY easier than finishing a double leg in open space on a good wrestler

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I think with MMA anything, you have to analyze the overall strategy and situation in context before you evaluate. For instance, how does your striking style affect your probability of getting or receiving takedowns? How does your opponent's fear of getting taken down affect your ability to hit him, and with what strikes, at what distance, and at what angles? For Cormier, you have to wonder whether he really wanted to take Jones down, or if he just wanted him wary of the takedown in order to open up his dirty boxing. If you notice, after the fight Jones wasn't bragging that he took down the wrestler, he was bragging that he got the better of him in the clinch.

 

[JohnSouth]

The ridiculous bent over stance doesn't help at all for fighting. The most successful guys are Greco - teach a Greco guy a blast double and he's ready to go.

Yes I saw several opportunities for upper body take downs go to waste.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

the rules are designed for wrestlers in a cage that favors wrestlers...

So your argument as to why wrestling is overrated in MMA, is essentially that MMA rules are designed to favor wrestlers? Think about that for a second.