MMA wrestling is different than wrestling

[snakeybizz]

in light of cormiers solid but ultimately unsuccessful performance where he only landed 1 out of 8 takedowns, you can't help but wonder how different MMA wrestling is to straight up wrestling. Jones took the guy down 3 out of 5 times and that's not even counting the leg catch in the first. A 4th place Olympian took jones down once and so did a lanky 6 ft 5 swede with no wrestling base at all.

The G.O.A.T wrestler off all time in MMA is GSP and he never even wrestled in high school...he is the best a taking people down in MMA competition

Aside from the obvious difference which is the ability to strike...what else changes, what are the biggest differences from your observations...or do you think there is no difference at all and that it translates 100%

 

[BJJ_Rage]

well, the cage plays a huge factor.

 

[snakeybizz]

well, the cage plays a huge factor.

good point...I think there is a lot of carry over there from straight up wrestling...while cage wrestling a whole art in itself...you still have your knowledge of finishes, grips, base etc

 

[rmongler]

well lets get a few things strait first, greg jackson can be called many things, but one thing you absolutely cant call him is bad at gameplanning. jon jones was simply much better prepared coming into that fight than cormier.

when the first bell rung what was dcs strategy coming out? apparently he liked his odds at punchers luck, but what does this fact also tell us? it says that he also focused his *training time* on boxing, and not so much on his wrestling. training becomes different when competition time is close, and the importance of focus in the lead up to competition is very often overlooked. alan belcher isint exactly known as a ground game savant, but in the crucial time frame for setting the habits you want for a fight he had absolute focus on his game plan of neutralizing paul harrises leg game. they knew cormiers strengths better than he himself did, and i have zero doubt in my mind that bones worked extensively on tdd strategies in the lead up here (and hes no schmuck himself when it comes to wrestling chops).

in short, i think i defer more to the right honorable w. d. gretzky for this analysis; 'you miss 100% of the shots you dont take'.

 

[Fruitsaladsushi]

Well, punching and kicking play a big part in that


Could this mean that MMA BJJ is different to normal BJJ ......omg brain explosion - insert Keanu meme

 

[Einarr]

The ridiculous bent over stance doesn't help at all for fighting. The most successful guys are Greco - teach a Greco guy a blast double and he's ready to go.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

GSP trained pure wrestling and adapted it very well for MMA- using his strikes to set up a takedown, and more importantly, using takedowns as a counter to strikes.

As rmongler said, DC fought how he trained. He worked on his dirty boxing hoping for a knockout, but perhaps neglected some focus on wrestling in the clinch. And he paid the price for it. I really don't like to armchair fighters, but it seems obvious that DC figured his wrestling would swoop in on cue when he needed it.

 

[Gojujutsu]

I think there are several factors. As mentioned: cage, upright stance, and strikes.

Also I would say don't forget about bjj/submissions. Not every bit of wrestling translates even into no gi because of this so it wouldn't in mma.

As regards training, I feel most fighters with a wrestling background don't continue to train that wrestling as they should to keep their skills as honed as they could be. They seem to think they will always be however great they were without an appropriate level of focus.

 

[Zankou]

Biggest difference is that superior athleticism and basic technique defeats lesser athleticism and incredibly refined technique.

In all grappling sports, but particularly with BJJ, deficiencies in athleticism and size can be masked by superior technical refinement and complexity. MMA strips that away and makes it much more basic. This is why you see decorated competitive sport grapplers in judo, bjj, and wrestling commonly get tooled at their own game by MMA athletes who technically have lesser credentials.

The other thing people forget is that the difference between a world champion judoka and a total unknown (or their equivalent in other grappling sports) is often relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. The guys who are world champs are commonly just slightly ahead of the also rans, often for technical reasons that have exactly zero carryover to MMA. So an undistinguished competitive grappler may be a wrecking ball in MMA.

 

[Steve08]

well, the cage plays a huge factor.

Yeah, mostly for the reason that cage-takedowns aren't very realistic. What I mean by that is, if Jon Jones kept pushing and pushing on DC in a wrestling match, they would just go out of bounds and be reset. In MMA, this allows Jones to put DCs back to the cage, giving him a completely inferior position, but if it was fought even inside a ring and not a cage, then DC would have simply fallen through the ropes meaning that more than half of Jones's completed takedowns wouldn't have happened if they had fought on a wrestling mat. Essentially, the takedowns were dependent almost entirely upon the cage they fought inside of. It is also debatable whether or not DC's conditioning played a part in it. He was not taken down, outside of a VERY easy to perform trip off a caught kick, until he was winded.

MMA wrestling is very different and I'm quite confident that an actual wrestling match between DC and Jones wouldnt turn out the same way.

 

[snakeybizz]

Yeah, mostly for the reason that cage-takedowns aren't very realistic

what do you mean by that?

realistic to a straight up wrestling scenario?

 

[Steve08]

what do you mean by that?

I mean that you mostly wind up against the cage when two guys are basically pushing against each other in the clinch, or one guy is defending a takedown that the other dude can't finish. However, pushing against each other in the clinch would look ridiculously silly in a fighting area without boundaries; it wouldnt be a dominant position if the cage wasnt there, they would just be pressing on each other in the clinch until they hit a wall (which isnt guaranteed).

On the other hand, if I time it well and get right in on his hips, then he's going down cage or no cage. I define "realistic" in this circumstance as being effective regardless of the place you happen to be fighting in. The fact that Gus easily took down Jones after finding himself in the inside position upon having slipped past a jab corroborates this imo. Basically, my point is that cage-takedowns are completely reliant upon something artificial. Just imagine if they fought inside of a ring instead. It would be stupid.

I just dont really think it takes much skill to push someone into the fence then grab their legs.

 

[Zankou]

I mean that you mostly wind up against the cage when two guys are basically pushing against each other in the clinch, or one guy is defending a takedown that the other dude can't finish. However, pushing against each other in the clinch would look ridiculously silly in a fighting area without boundaries; it wouldnt be a dominant position if the cage wasnt there, they would just be pressing on each other in the clinch until they hit a wall (which isnt guaranteed).

On the other hand, if I time it well and get right in on his hips, then he's going down cage or no cage. I define "realistic" in this circumstance as being effective regardless of the place you happen to be fighting in. The fact that Gus easily took down Jones after finding himself in the inside position upon having slipped past a jab corroborates this imo. Basically, my point is that cage-takedowns are completely reliant upon something artificial. Just imagine if they fought inside of a ring instead. It would be stupid.

I just dont really think it takes much skill to push someone into the fence then grab their legs.

You should have mentioned that last point to Cormier, he could've used the tip.

 

[FishinWithFredo]

I think those short elbows on the inside really kept DC in check as well as the threat of the shoulder crank Jones pulled on Tex.

As a fellow flightman, I'll be looking to implement those things into my training

 

[Steve08]

You should have mentioned that last point to Cormier, he could've used the tip.

I'm not qualified to give him advice. I just dont think jon jones is actually a significantly better wrestler than cormier. My essential point is that none of the situations that jones took DC down in exist in wrestling at all.

"Athlete X is better at sport Y because he beat athlete Y in sport X" - we know this doesnt apply to jiu jitsu and mma, wrestling is no different. That's all I'm saying.

 

[snakeybizz]

I'm not qualified to give him advice. I just dont think jon jones is actually a significantly better wrestler than cormier. My essential point is that none of the situations that jones took DC down in exist in wrestling at all.

"Athlete X is better at sport Y because he beat athlete Y in sport X" - we know this doesnt apply to jiu jitsu and mma, wrestling is no different. That's all I'm saying.

clearly he is not a better wrestler in straight up wrestling...but his mma wrestling seemed to be much better

 

[MitsuyoMaeda]

The body shots wore him down.

The wrestling skills are kinda up for grabs. I knew DC would have a hard time with him. Jones is no slouch in wrestling. He was a stud in high school, stud at Iowa Central and turned down his ride to Iowa State...what he could have accomplished at that level will always remain a mystery because he choose to pursue MMA.

I agree that GSP is the best wrestler in MMA. His wrestling coach is an absolute animal! And that has transitioned very well for him. I don't agree with the international point of view at times, but they believe the best technicians are the Irainians and those from the former USSR.

 

[Steve08]

clearly he is not a better wrestler in straight up wrestling...but his mma wrestling seemed to be much better

Right, which is exactly the point I am trying to make (even if I would say "somewhat better" more so than "much better", it's not as if Jones repeatedly took him down over and over again): Jon Jones is just straight up better at MMA than DC, and that's why he won.

 

[Uchi Mata]

GSP trained pure wrestling and adapted it very well for MMA- using his strikes to set up a takedown, and more importantly, using takedowns as a counter to strikes.

As rmongler said, DC fought how he trained. He worked on his dirty boxing hoping for a knockout, but perhaps neglected some focus on wrestling in the clinch. And he paid the price for it. I really don't like to armchair fighters, but it seems obvious that DC figured his wrestling would swoop in on cue when he needed it.

This is a huge part of it. Wrestlers set up TDs via handfighting and pummeling, in MMA the best TD artists set them up with strikes and use them to counter strikes. The way you get angles for your TDs in MMA is totally different than how you do it in pure grappling. And as also mentioned, the cage plays a huge role. If you have a guy up against the cage you can play a much more aggressive, forward driving TD game than you could on the open mat because you don't have to worry about being taken forward. That's basically what Jones did, he drove into Cormier until he got an opening and then hit that double without really penetrating (he just dropped down) because with the cage at his back Cormier couldn't redirect him offline or get an effective sprawl. You see Ronda do it a lot too, she'll drive people into the cage and either bounce them off into a hip throw or attack zero risk footsweeps (kouchi gari mostly) without having to worry about being countered forward.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I mean that you mostly wind up against the cage when two guys are basically pushing against each other in the clinch, or one guy is defending a takedown that the other dude can't finish. However, pushing against each other in the clinch would look ridiculously silly in a fighting area without boundaries; it wouldnt be a dominant position if the cage wasnt there, they would just be pressing on each other in the clinch until they hit a wall (which isnt guaranteed).

On the other hand, if I time it well and get right in on his hips, then he's going down cage or no cage. I define "realistic" in this circumstance as being effective regardless of the place you happen to be fighting in. The fact that Gus easily took down Jones after finding himself in the inside position upon having slipped past a jab corroborates this imo. Basically, my point is that cage-takedowns are completely reliant upon something artificial. Just imagine if they fought inside of a ring instead. It would be stupid.

All sports are silly outside the confines of their rules. Basketball would be silly if the net were a foot off the ground.

Also, if you're thinking self defense, I'd imagine a lot more fights occur in rooms with walls than in open fields.

I just dont really think it takes much skill to push someone into the fence then grab their legs.

You should try it sometime. You're very, very wrong.