Media MMA On Point: The Secret World Of Fixed Japanese MMA Fights

[Buffmeister]

Thats the Tamura Kohsaka "fight"

 

[panem-et-circenses]

Here is the Shamrock vs. Hume match (July 6th, 1994)


Not a real fight but listed.


Kiyoshi Tamura vs Mikhail Ilyukhin (RINGS 1-21-98)

Kiyoshi Tamura vs Joop Kasteel (RINGS 8-19-99)

Murakami Kazunari vs John Dixon (Pride 1)

Listed as actual fights but aren’t

 

[Kforcer]

I don’t think this is true anymore. It’s just that nobody wants to sift through endless hours of RINGS in order to edit wiki, FF or whatever database one uses for fight records.

As someone who loves watching RINGs, I really think it is, especially among the higher level shoot-style performers, especially with performers that utilize a kaitentai approach. There are the strange, unplanned things and the instances of fatigue, etc. that happen in shoots that can sort of give them away, but RINGs was so stiff and sometimes, so realistic, that you saw that stuff in the works as well at times. Remember, with RINGs was incredibly stiff and unplanned KO's and TKO's in worked matches were simply considered wins for whoever scored the KO.

 

[Kforcer]

Sakuraba versus Newton is clearly a worked fight, too. From PRIDE 3. We don’t ever acknowledge that.

On what basis do you think that Newton-Sakuraba was worked? Some people think that there was a "no strikes" agreement, but nobody has alleged it to be worked. And in fact, they throw some strikes, actually.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

As someone who loves watching RINGs, I really think it is, especially among the higher level shoot-style performers, especially with performers that utilize a kaitentai approach. There are the strange, unplanned things and the instances of fatigue, etc. that happen in shoots that can sort of give them away, but RINGs was so stiff and sometimes, so realistic, that you saw that stuff in the works as well at times. Remember, with RINGs was incredibly stiff and unplanned KO's and TKO's in worked matches were simply considered wins for whoever scored the KO.

In ten minutes or less, using YT, I found 10 or so worked fights that are listed on websites recording MMA records, including Sherdog. You can tell what is real and what is fake. It comes down to whether or not people want to do the work. Tamura, who I consider a legitimate toughguy and fighter, has a bunch of fake fights on FF and Wiki. Nobody has cared, though. We don’t even care enough to edit these records, but we should acknowledge that we could, especially in the case of RINGS.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

On what basis do you think that Newton-Sakuraba was worked? Some people think that there was a "no strikes" agreement, but nobody has alleged it to be worked. And in fact, they throw some strikes, actually.

I just rewatched the match. It wasn’t a real fight, imo. It was like the Genki-Oxley match in that it’s much more difficult to tell, because both athletes are good grapplers, but there is cooperation and no significant strikes, which is the giveaway.

 

[Kforcer]

In ten or less minutes, using YT, I found 10 or so worked fights that are listed on websites recording MMA records, including Sherdog. You can tell what is real and what is fake. It comes down to whether or not people want to do the work. Tamura, who I consider a legitimate toughguy and fighter, has a bunch of fake fights on FF and Wiki. Nobody has cared, though. We don’t even care enough to edit these records, but we should acknowledge that we could, especially in the case of RINGS.

There are plenty of RINGs fights where it is hard to tell. It is especially hard to tell in worked fights with legitimate KO's, which happened RINGs.

 

[Kforcer]

I just rewatched the match. It wasn’t a real fight, imo. It was like the Genki-Oxley match in that it’s much more difficult to tell, because both athletes are good grapplers, but there is cooperation and no significant strikes, which is the giveaway.

I couldn't disagree with you more. They don't throw that many strikes because, well, it is Sakuraba and Carlos Newton. They don't cooperate, they just put on an amazing MMA fight with some excellent grappling exchanges.

I wouldn't call Oxley-Sudo a work either; if the finish is too much for you to believe, recall that Takaharu Murahama did the same finish to Chris Brennan in Shooto.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

There are plenty of RINGs fights where it is hard to tell. It is especially hard to tell in worked fights with legitimate KO's, which happened RINGs.

We would have to go through them. There are RINGS tournaments listed on these databases which were clearly not fights. That one Tamura won — posted above — has already been shown to be a fake fight. Again, Pancrase will be the tough one to sift through, with so many events and good grapplers.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

I couldn't disagree with you more. They don't throw that many strikes because, well, it is Sakuraba and Carlos Newton. They don't cooperate, they just put on an amazing MMA fight with some excellent grappling exchanges.

I wouldn't call Oxley-Sudo a work either; if the finish is too much for you to believe, recall that Takaharu Murahama did the same finish to Chris Brennan in Shooto.

I posted the video. It’s clearly not an MMA fight. I believed, too, when I was younger. Now, many years later, it’s clear it doesn’t resemble any real MMA match preceding, or following, their PRIDE 3 encounter.

 

[Kforcer]

I posted the video. It’s clearly not an MMA fight. I believed, too, when I was younger. Now, many years later, it’s clear it doesn’t resemble any real MMA match preceding, or following, their PRIDE 3 encounter.

I've seen that fight countless times, and again, I couldn't disagree with you more. And I don't think a fight being unique is grounds for calling a fight fake, either. Sakuraba and Carlos Newton are both unique fighters and it stands to reason an encounter between them is going to be different than what people normally see. It is a fight that has been watched countless times by people and you are pretty much the first person I'm aware of to call it a work; people have claimed it was a glorified grappling match or that there was a non-striking agreement, but I've never heard the work accusations before now. And again, this is not an obscure fight, this is a fight that has been watched and rewatched countless times.

There's nothing fake about it, it is just two exciting grapplers going at it, taking risks and trying to put on the best show they can.

Oxley-Sudo wasn't fake either; the ending is shocking, but again, it is a technique that's been done before. And in fact, Genki Sudo pulled it off in other bouts, though he didn't necessarily score a finish. And before him, Murahama pulled it off against Chris Brennan.

 

[europe1]

Great video.

One thing I would add regarding Pancrase. Some of the fixes were more mutual arrangements rather than scripted content. Like they've mentioned, going easy on the new-kids so to prolong the matches. But I've also heard that Funaki and Suzuki would have this agreement when they fought each other to fight more for excitement and fun than doing it competatively. They were so close friends that they didn't really want to genuinelly fight each other. I think this bares out when you watch their fights, with them doing outrageous stuff like baseball-slides and such which really isn't optimal.

So while the fights may not have been worked in the sense of being scripted, there does seem to have been more backroom agreements and honour-codes and such.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

I've seen that fight countless times, and again, I couldn't disagree with you more. And I don't think a fight being unique is grounds for calling a fight fake, either. Sakuraba and Carlos Newton are both unique fighters and it stands to reason an encounter between them is going to be different than what people normally see. It is a fight that has been watched countless times by people and you are pretty much the first person I'm aware of to call it a work; people have claimed it was a glorified grappling match or that there was a non-striking agreement, but I've never heard the work accusations before now. And again, this is not an obscure fight, this is a fight that has been watched and rewatched countless times.

There's nothing fake about it, it is just two exciting grapplers going at it, taking risks and trying to put on the best show they can.

Oxley-Sudo wasn't fake either; the ending is shocking, but again, it is a technique that's been done before. And in fact, Genki Sudo pulled it off in other bouts, though he didn't necessarily score a finish. And before him, Murahama pulled it off against Chris Brennan.

An MMA fight where no strikes are thrown, featuring some wacky grappling positions on a card with one of the more obvious fake fights of all-time… it’s clear that both athletes mimed actual fighting, with Carlos accidentally throwing one semi-hard strike some time in round two iirc. You haven’t seen fights like this, really, even between grappling centric athletes. I have watched a ton of odd fights in ZST, random Japanese promotions, regionals, amateur, and know when something isn’t right.

I have heard the gentleman’s agreement theory before, too, only I don’t know why they would then pull their punches.

The video is there for both the Genki and Sakuraba matches. Anyone can see for themselves. I respect both fighters and I’m not being rude. It’s within the context of discussing worked, fixed, fake fights. The RINGS stuff is clearly ready to be taken off of records, though. No room for debate about a ton of these listed fights.

 

[Kforcer]

An MMA fight where no strikes are thrown, featuring some wacky grappling positions on a card with one of the more obvious fake fights of all-time… it’s clear that both athletes mimed actual fighting, with Carlos accidentally throwing one semi-hard strike some time in round two iirc. You haven’t seen fights like this, really, even between grappling centric athletes. I have watched a ton of odd fights in ZST, random Japanese promotions, regionals, amateur, and know when something isn’t right.

I have heard the gentleman’s agreement theory before, too, only I don’t know why they would then pull their punches.

The video is there for both the Genki and Sakuraba matches. Anyone can see for themselves. I respect both fighters and I’m not being rude. It’s within the context of discussing worked, fixed, fake fights. The RINGS stuff is clearly ready to be taken off of records, though. No room for debate about a ton of these listed fights.

Yeah, I think you're just entirely wrong on both counts. In the case of Sakuraba, it is just two skilled, unorthodox, highly skilled grapplers going at it. Sakuraba's rolling DWL's do create some interesting positions and he pulls off an unusual cartwheel-like takedown off the whizzer, but it isn't something that hasn't been done. In fact, Adam Saitiev has done a similar move tons of times in freestyle wrestling and I've seen plenty of other guys do variations of the same. I don't think there even was a gentleman's agreement, as both did throw strikes and I don't think either of them were pulling their punches, they were just focused on getting a submission and if you notice, when Newton did try to open up with punches, Sakuraba immediately took him down. Sakuraba exposed a weakness in Newton's game which Kenji Kawaguchi nearly exploited a little bit later, successfully entering into a rolling kneebar on Newton but being unable to finish it.

As far as Genki Sudo, yeah, he did a spectacular move. But again, it has been done before, not only by Sudo, but by Takaharu Murahama in Shooto against Chris Brennan. It looks crazy, but it really makes perfect sense; you're surprising your opponent and also creating enough space to get your knee up in the middle and go for a leglock upon landing.

These aren't obscure fights or anything; Sakuraba's fight, especially, is a fan favorite that countless people, including myself, have gone over with a fine-toothed comb. Some people find the lack of strikes in the Newton fight odd and speculate a gentleman's agreement, but that's it. That it isn't a work isn't just my off-brand opinion, it is essentially the unanimous opinion of all the countless grappling experts and enthusiasts that have watched it time and again. And as far as the Sudo fight, a spectacular, unorthodox finish doesn't make for a fixed fight. Like I said, it has been done before to success. Takaharu Murahama actually tried unsuccessfully to recreate it against Ryuki Ueyama later on in his career and Genki Sudo has also gone for it in other bouts.

 

[Kforcer]

Great video.

One thing I would add regarding Pancrase. Some of the fixes were more mutual arrangements rather than scripted content. Like they've mentioned, going easy on the new-kids so to prolong the matches. But I've also heard that Funaki and Suzuki would have this agreement when they fought each other to fight more for excitement and fun than doing it competatively. They were so close friends that they didn't really want to genuinelly fight each other. I think this bares out when you watch their fights, with them doing outrageous stuff like baseball-slides and such which really isn't optimal.

Funaki and Suzuki's friendship sort of fell apart when Pancrase took off; Funaki said that their shared responsibility of being "aces" weighed on them and that when Suzuki sort of fell off from various injuries a "distance" was created between them. Suzuki has just straight-up ripped on Funaki a few times. And Satoru Kitaoka, a Suzuki protege, ripped Funaki upon his comeback, seemingly miming Suzuki's position.

I think they've reconciled though. They WERE essentially like brothers at first. As far as their sole Pancrase fight, I think they started out with flash and then got down to real fighting.

 

[Kforcer]

I respect both fighters and I’m not being rude.

Where did I call you rude or disrespectful? I disagree with you and gave some reasons why, that's all. Disagreements happen.

 

[kingghidrah]

good source for Rings reviews, sometimes stating which were works, also notes some of the shoots that were in the middle of an otherwise completely worked card. I pretty much assume all early Rings were works unless noted, and later ones were shoots unless noted.

http://www.quebrada.net/videos/RINGS1.html

http://www.quebrada.net/videos/RINGS2.html

 

[kingghidrah]

Great video.

One thing I would add regarding Pancrase. Some of the fixes were more mutual arrangements rather than scripted content. Like they've mentioned, going easy on the new-kids so to prolong the matches. But I've also heard that Funaki and Suzuki would have this agreement when they fought each other to fight more for excitement and fun than doing it competatively. They were so close friends that they didn't really want to genuinelly fight each other. I think this bares out when you watch their fights, with them doing outrageous stuff like baseball-slides and such which really isn't optimal.

So while the fights may not have been worked in the sense of being scripted, there does seem to have been more backroom agreements and honour-codes and such.

With Pancrase, Jason De Lucia said the way the company did "works" was usually through favorable matchmaking, some "carrying" during fights, and "pressure" from above, in terms of rescheduling fights to someone's disadvantage and other "dirty tricks". He basically said he could tell when he was "supposed" to lose but didn't go along with it, but it was sometimes hard to win when they wanted you to lose, like matching you quickly against someone who had a lot of time to prepare.

He said the first Funaki fight was supposed to be a long fight where he would presumably lose, but Funaki got caught too far from the ropes and had to tap.

 

[Yrat]

MMA On Point did a video looking into the fixed MMA bouts that took place in Japan while also looking into the history of the scene and what inspired it.

Defamation!

 

[panem-et-circenses]

Yeah, I think you're just entirely wrong on both counts. In the case of Sakuraba, it is just two skilled, unorthodox, highly skilled grapplers going at it. Sakuraba's rolling DWL's do create some interesting positions and he pulls off an unusual cartwheel-like takedown off the whizzer, but it isn't something that hasn't been done. In fact, Adam Saitiev has done a similar move tons of times in freestyle wrestling and I've seen plenty of other guys do variations of the same. I don't think there even was a gentleman's agreement, as both did throw strikes and I don't think either of them were pulling their punches, they were just focused on getting a submission and if you notice, when Newton did try to open up with punches, Sakuraba immediately took him down. Sakuraba exposed a weakness in Newton's game which Kenji Kawaguchi nearly exploited a little bit later, successfully entering into a rolling kneebar on Newton but being unable to finish it.

As far as Genki Sudo, yeah, he did a spectacular move. But again, it has been done before, not only by Sudo, but by Takaharu Murahama in Shooto against Chris Brennan. It looks crazy, but it really makes perfect sense; you're surprising your opponent and also creating enough space to get your knee up in the middle and go for a leglock upon landing.

These aren't obscure fights or anything; Sakuraba's fight, especially, is a fan favorite that countless people, including myself, have gone over with a fine-toothed comb. Some people find the lack of strikes in the Newton fight odd and speculate a gentleman's agreement, but that's it. That it isn't a work isn't just my off-brand opinion, it is essentially the unanimous opinion of all the countless grappling experts and enthusiasts that have watched it time and again. And as far as the Sudo fight, a spectacular, unorthodox finish doesn't make for a fixed fight. Like I said, it has been done before to success. Takaharu Murahama actually tried unsuccessfully to recreate it against Ryuki Ueyama later on in his career and Genki Sudo has also gone for it in other bouts.

Newton literally pulls his punch a couple minutes into the bout. I could gif it, but it seems like a waste of time when the video is there. At the very least, and this is clear from the tape, Newton and Sakuraba didn’t really strike. And a lot of the grappling is one step above light-rolling…it’s like RINGS in PRIDE. The match isn’t great in hindsight, and we were too blinded by our fandom to realize it wasn’t a normal fight. Both produced great MMA moments outside of this particular bout though.

Put the match in front of people today on a PPV and the athletic commission — commissions we routinely callout for not being the best arbiter of the sport — are going to investigate. Recently, in Rizin, we had one of these “gentlemans agreements,” and it tainted the promotion.

The Genki fight is sus, but, again, we aren’t going to agree.