MMA isn't mixed martial arts anymore

[JohnPJones]

If you don't consider Muay Thai a form of kickboxing, or savate, or capoeira, etc.

But even so, there you have a guy who basically practices boxing with kicks and has learned a lot of Muay Thai and you says that what he practices is Karate ... it seems dishonest to say the least.

all depends on how you define karate I guess.

 

[Dadbod Dorado]

Re: GSP as a having a karate base: GSP trained Kyokushin mostly as a kid. He then went on to get a black belt in BJJ, trained extensively in wrestling, muay thai, etc. GSP was good at what he did not because he had a base in Kyokushin but because he became very good at a number of styles and arts. Would he get knocked out by a top level Kyokushin black belt in Kyokushin rules? Maybe. He might get tapped by a top level BJJ black belt under BJJ rules. He might be man-handled by a top level wrestler under wrestling rules. But he was good enough at all of those things and at practicing and applying them under MMA conditions to be good at MMA. (Being a black belt in Kyokushin doesn't do much to prepare you for someone throwing a flurry of fists at your face, being a black belt in BJJ does't do much to prepare you for someone in top position raining elbows on your face, being excellent at wrestling doesn't do much to prepare you for a knee to the face when you shoot in for a takedown.)

 

[Dadbod Dorado]

Re: "Kickboxing comes from karate": That's only partially accurate. (That means it's also partially inaccurate.)

In North America, kickboxing essentially happened as a hybrid of full contact "sport" karate and boxing. Practitioners wanted real contact; not point fighting. And that's why you generally don't see the use of knees or lowkicks in "American" kickboxing; because its mostly derived from styles of karate that generally don't deal in knee strikes and low kicks. (American style kickboxing = American sport karate + boxing.)

In Asia, kickboxing already existed in the form of a number of South East Asian fighting arts. Japan got onboard when some karate fighters (especially Oyama / kyokushin fighters but other styles as well) wanted to get involved in full-contact fighting. They based themselves on close observations of and close collaboration with muay thai fighters. They essentially adapted those techniques and approaches to their karate base. This is why pro kickboxing outside of North America has generally included knee strikes, low kicks, clinching, etc. They might not do headbutts and elbows, but the rest is evidently inspired by the fighting arts of South East Asia. (Japanese kickboxing = knockdown karate (AKA karate that is heavily influenced by Muay Thai) + head punches.) This is why Japanese kickboxing (and kickboxing throughout most of the rest of the world) includes knees, low kicks, clinching, etc. And this is also why pure knockdown karate practitioners have historically had to go to "kickboxing school" before hitting the K-1 stage. It's well fine and dandy that they had their black belts in Seidokaikan or Kyokushin; they nonetheless needed to get additional training on protecting their faces from punches, and on adapting what they've learned for a different set of rules and conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing

 

[JohnPJones]

Re: "Kickboxing comes from karate": That's only partially accurate. (That means it's also partially inaccurate.)

In North America, kickboxing essentially happened as a hybrid of full contact "sport" karate and boxing. Practitioners wanted real contact; not point fighting. And that's why you generally don't see the use of knees or lowkicks in "American" kickboxing; because its mostly derived from styles of karate that generally don't deal in knee strikes and low kicks. (American style kickboxing = American sport karate + boxing.)

In Asia, kickboxing already existed in the form of a number of South East Asian fighting arts. Japan got onboard when some karate fighters (especially Oyama / kyokushin fighters but other styles as well) wanted to get involved in full-contact fighting. They based themselves on close observations of and close collaboration with muay thai fighters. They essentially adapted those techniques and approaches to their karate base. This is why pro kickboxing outside of North America has generally included knee strikes, low kicks, clinching, etc. They might not do headbutts and elbows, but the rest is evidently inspired by the fighting arts of South East Asia. (Japanese kickboxing = knockdown karate (AKA karate that is heavily influenced by Muay Thai) + head punches.) This is why Japanese kickboxing (and kickboxing throughout most of the rest of the world) includes knees, low kicks, clinching, etc. And this is also why pure knockdown karate practitioners have historically had to go to "kickboxing school" before hitting the K-1 stage. It's well fine and dandy that they had their black belts in Seidokaikan or Kyokushin; they nonetheless needed to get additional training on protecting their faces from punches, and on adapting what they've learned for a different set of rules and conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickboxing

So yes you just confirmed what I said.
Kickboxing as we know it today comes from karate. Kickboxing and Muay Thai are kept separate, and MT influenced kickboxing, but as we know it today, it comes from karate.

Idk why people can’t just accept that. It’s like admitting it validates karate that doesn’t engage in KB, which most all of us agrees is kinda shit for actual fighting.

 

[DoctorTaco]

So yes you just confirmed what I said.
Kickboxing as we know it today comes from karate. Kickboxing and Muay Thai are kept separate, and MT influenced kickboxing, but as we know it today, it comes from karate.

Idk why people can’t just accept that. It’s like admitting it validates karate that doesn’t engage in KB, which most all of us agrees is kinda shit for actual fighting.

dutch style has direct roots from kyokushin (sp). Glory and K-1 rules were based on keeping fights exciting for the fans so they took out clinch and elbows. (Elbows can stop fights early via cuts, clinch is boring to casuals).

Thank you for coming to my ted talk

 

[Dadbod Dorado]

So yes you just confirmed what I said.
Kickboxing as we know it today comes from karate. Kickboxing and Muay Thai are kept separate, and MT influenced kickboxing, but as we know it today, it comes from karate.

Again you're sorta right but sorta wrong. Kickboxing as we know it in North America comes directly from one big genre of Karate. Kickboxing as we know it throughout most of the rest of the world comes from the big family of South East Asian striking arts (Muay Thai, etc.) indirectly through another big genre of karate. (Are K-1 fighters karateka without gis and with head punches? Or are they nuak muay without elbows?)

And you can't forget kickboxing styles that originated organically without external influence. For example, Savate, from France, originated as a sailor street fighting style with kicks and open handed slapping (no punches) because closed first were considered deadly weapons under French law. So foot strike (kicking) was adopted not through exposure to Karate or Muay Thai (etc.) but out of necessity. (If I punch the guy, I'll go to jail under weapons charges . . . but if kick the guy my with big ass boots, it's just assault!)

Anyway the point is that saying that kickboxing comes from karate IMO is only partially right. Kickboxing as most of the world knows it would never have been a thing if it weren't for Muay Thai IMO.

 

[JohnPJones]

Again you're sorta right but sorta wrong. Kickboxing as we know it in North America comes directly from one big genre of Karate. Kickboxing as we know it throughout most of the rest of the world comes from the big family of South East Asian striking arts (Muay Thai, etc.) indirectly through another big genre of karate. (Are K-1 fighters karateka without gis and with head punches? Or are they nuak muay without elbows?)

And you can't forget kickboxing styles that originated organically without external influence. For example, Savate, from France, originated as a sailor street fighting style with kicks and open handed slapping (no punches) because closed first were considered deadly weapons under French law. So foot strike (kicking) was adopted not through exposure to Karate or Muay Thai (etc.) but out of necessity. (If I punch the guy, I'll go to jail under weapons charges . . . but if kick the guy my with big ass boots, it's just assault!)

Anyway the point is that saying that kickboxing comes from karate IMO is only partially right. Kickboxing as most of the world knows it would never have been a thing if it weren't for Muay Thai IMO.

No one outside of hardcore combat sports fans know anything about any martial arts from SEA, except maybe MT.
Savate is a niche martial art.

I think the desire for a full contact continuous method of fight with head punches within karate would still have occurred without Muay Thai, and I think it would still largely look the same without Muay Thai.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

MMA draws talent from a lot of different talent pools still. Israel Adesanya is a kickboxer who transitioned. Glover Tex is a BJJ fighter. Volkanovski is a rugby player. Stipe - fire fighter. Etc

 

[LoClohs]

No one outside of hardcore combat sports fans know anything about any martial arts from SEA, except maybe MT.
Savate is a niche martial art.

I think the desire for a full contact continuous method of fight with head punches within karate would still have occurred without Muay Thai, and I think it would still largely look the same without Muay Thai.

People definitely know about MT. And I don't think other MAs being niche invalidate them, Capoeira is niche, but it's very well known not only in its home country but in some others as well. The same about savate. Heck, there are extremely productive, successful, and legitimate martial arts that are niche, not least because martial arts in general are. Give them all a Karate Kid, and they will be niche no more.

all depends on how you define karate I guess.

This reply makes no sense.

 

[wwkirk]

The same about savate.

Does savate actually have a significant following in France? I never hear about it.

I thought van Damme had trained in savate, but he hasn't.

 

[LoClohs]

Re: GSP as a having a karate base: GSP trained Kyokushin mostly as a kid. He then went on to get a black belt in BJJ, trained extensively in wrestling, muay thai, etc. GSP was good at what he did not because he had a base in Kyokushin but because he became very good at a number of styles and arts. Would he get knocked out by a top level Kyokushin black belt in Kyokushin rules? Maybe. He might get tapped by a top level BJJ black belt under BJJ rules. He might be man-handled by a top level wrestler under wrestling rules. But he was good enough at all of those things and at practicing and applying them under MMA conditions to be good at MMA. (Being a black belt in Kyokushin doesn't do much to prepare you for someone throwing a flurry of fists at your face, being a black belt in BJJ does't do much to prepare you for someone in top position raining elbows on your face, being excellent at wrestling doesn't do much to prepare you for a knee to the face when you shoot in for a takedown.)

It's obvious that training in something makes you better at this specific something you're training, and not at what you're not training.

Your examples are silly, of course training wrestling takedowns doesn't prepare you for your opponent's knees, but it trains you in takedowns. Training BJJ doesn't prepare you for elbows from the Mount position, but it trains you how to wrestle for that position and/or the Back Mount position. etc.

As a rule MMA fighters have a base, it's factual. And seeing how some can be successful in MMA being so one-dimensional, I don't see any change. Imagine training with head strikes all your life, because you're training MMA, only to lose to some guy who's only wrestled since he was eleven and started training striking and BJJ 3 years ago.

I think the desire for a full contact continuous method of fight with head punches within karate would still have occurred without Muay Thai, and I think it would still largely look the same without Muay Thai.

Okay, but we'll never know.

 

[LoClohs]

Does savate actually have a significant following in France? I never hear about it.

I thought van Damme had trained in savate, but he hasn't.

Good point, I just naturally assumed that at least in France the Savate is not niche. But I could be wrong. Generally martial arts are niche, unless there is any successful franchise around them. Martial arts shouldn't be judged because of this. By far more people know about Kung Fu (an umbrella term for Chinese martial arts) than Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Luta Livre, CACC, or Muay Thai I would say.

Popularity and knowledge of martial arts is mainly due to media presence, and not effectiveness, age or anything else.

 

[JohnPJones]

People definitely know about MT. And I don't think other MAs being niche invalidate them, Capoeira is niche, but it's very well known not only in its home country but in some others as well. The same about savate. Heck, there are extremely productive, successful, and legitimate martial arts that are niche, not least because martial arts in general are. Give them all a Karate Kid, and they will be niche no more.



This reply makes no sense.

It doesn’t, this forum has literally debated who is karateka in MMA, and if giga chikadze’s dojo is actually a goju ryu dojo or an MMA gym.

 

[Paradigm]

I just explained to you that the only reason so many current champions don't have pure MMA background is because MMA is so young. In 2004 most people didn't even know what is MMA unlike today.

By the way GSP background, who is top 5 grappler ever ,is karate. So if we go by your logic if i want to become wrestiling gold medalist i should train karate

Chuck's base was college wrestling.

 

[JohnPJones]

Chuck's base was college wrestling.

Tell that to chuck and his advanced rank in karate.



literally started karate at age 12 and is now 8th Dan. Pretty sure that makes karate his base

wrestling season, he’d go to karate class after wrestling.
Football season he’d go to karate after practice or a game.

so he wrestled for a few months a year, in college and trained karate all year round, from 12 until today

 

[SandisLL]

For example, Savate, from France, originated as a sailor street fighting style with kicks and open handed slapping (no punches) because closed first were considered deadly weapons under French law. So foot strike (kicking) was adopted not through exposure to Karate or Muay Thai (etc.) but out of necessity.

Well, in these times CCTV didn't had existed and I might find another reason.
Savate and bartitsu looks that initially had been SD arts.
In casual obstacles in park in 1800 ies gentleman might had walking stick ( during this time in some areas this was prestigious thing ), shoes or boots and thin gloves.

In SD relatively common thing is for example to use as kick's contact surface tip of shoe or basis, side surface of boot.

Imagine difference between these things:
kick in bladder area with tip of shoe, like pro level shoe for irish step dancing with punch with closed fist?

Savate and bartitsu were also with walking stick. Later savate get till sport.

 

[listrahtes]

Dont really get why this thread is in stand up. Thought here its about practical implementation. Would imo be better in Kickboxing subforum.

 

[LoClohs]

It doesn’t, this forum has literally debated who is karateka in MMA, and if giga chikadze’s dojo is actually a goju ryu dojo or an MMA gym.

"It doesn’t" what? Sorry but this reply makes no sense.

Again, Karate is a different animal. Its a case apart. All of karate's offshoots, and how it can be mixed with other arts and still call themselve karate, as is done with Kudo, with little backlash.

The closer to backlash I can think of is the mangaka Sandrovich, that through his work on Kengan Omega he criticized karateka practitioners of a style that was nothing more than a cheap copy of MMA. In Kengan Ashura he had already done the same with a Sumo wrestler who did the same cheap copy of MMA thing. It should be remembered that Sandro is passionate about Karate and demonstrates this in his works. Fist of The Seeker being the one in which Karate is most prominent.

This shouldnt be applied to other bases, most are far from being so complicated. Wrestlers, BJJrs, Muay Thai fighters, etc. And these are the majority by far also anyway.

About chikadze's gym, I imagine (and hope) that it's not referring to Rafael Cordeiro's Kings MMA, but to a gym owned by Chikadze himself. Right? Because it doesn't make any sense to have any doubts about Kings MMA being an MMA academy and not being from Goju.

 

[Dadbod Dorado]

The thing about Chuck's "karate" is that it's not really karate. Or not *only* karate.

He's a black belt in Hawaiian Kempo, which is a specific brand of Kajukenbo, which is a syncretic / hybrid art that was formed by combining techniques from at a few different styles of KArate + JUdo and JUjutsu + KENpo + BOxing (and also kung-fu, arnis, and kenpo but for whatever reason they didn't get included in the naming convention).

So if we want to say that Chuck is a karate fighter, that's a whole other can of worms that we're opening here.

 

[JohnPJones]

"It doesn’t" what? Sorry but this reply makes no sense.

Again, Karate is a different animal. Its a case apart. All of karate's offshoots, and how it can be mixed with other arts and still call themselve karate, as is done with Kudo, with little backlash.

The closer to backlash I can think of is the mangaka Sandrovich, that through his work on Kengan Omega he criticized karateka practitioners of a style that was nothing more than a cheap copy of MMA. In Kengan Ashura he had already done the same with a Sumo wrestler who did the same cheap copy of MMA thing. It should be remembered that Sandro is passionate about Karate and demonstrates this in his works. Fist of The Seeker being the one in which Karate is most prominent.

This shouldnt be applied to other bases, most are far from being so complicated. Wrestlers, BJJrs, Muay Thai fighters, etc. And these are the majority by far also anyway.

About chikadze's gym, I imagine (and hope) that it's not referring to Rafael Cordeiro's Kings MMA, but to a gym owned by Chikadze himself. Right? Because it doesn't make any sense to have any doubts about Kings MMA being an MMA academy and not being from Goju.

As best as I can tell based off the few videos with giga and the fact that they’re both Georgian, this seems to be Giga’s original dojo/gym
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCqS3Y0LkDuKlrwvcvzxuFHg/videos