MMA Could Never Survive Without Elements Of Pro Wrestling

[in the liver]

"Fo sho"? Don't butcher my language.

what language did you invent then mr smartypants

 

[in the liver]

One of the most annoying things about MMA fans is their refusal to admit that the average fan isn't some highly-educated connoisseur with a basement full of Japanese MMA events on VHS. Your average fan drinks cheap, domestic beer, listens to top-40 radio, watches reality TV, and is definitely not an expert on MMA. Trash-talk is annoying as fuck, but it's needed to get these people (who also happen to be UFC's biggest and highest-paying audience) into the fight(s).

UFC, and especially WME, do not care about hardcores.

im striking out against beer hipsterism and im starting with you

alcohol is a means to an end. people drink it to become stupider on purpose. acting as if alcohol is the ingredient in some kind of enlightenment ritual is a falsehood. boo, sir. boo you. boo thee, and thine

 

[Blackjack]

Two BS in just one line:
1) football (soccer) is the most popular sport
2) i've watched prowrestling from the mid 80s to the early 90s and it was already scripted, so scripted that even elementary school children could recognize it

No, it wasn't scripted in the mid 80s or even in the early 90s. Back in the 80s one hour matches were commonplace. Wrestlers would have needed memories like computers to memorize a script for an hour long match. As for the interviews and promos, they were not read off a script - they were the products of the imaginations of the wrestlers. In the late 90s Vince McMahon hired writers to start scripting the promos rather than continue to allow wrestlers to improvise their promos. This is documented fact. Dave Meltzer (and many others) can back this up.

I suppose it's a compliment that you don't believe that nobody could possibly have improvised what you saw the wrestlers do and that it must have been scripted.

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

im striking out against beer hipsterism and im starting with you

alcohol is a means to an end. people drink it to become stupider on purpose. acting as if alcohol is the ingredient in some kind of enlightenment ritual is a falsehood. boo, sir. boo you. boo thee, and thine

Not a beer hipster in any way, I just used that to draw parallels to the attitude of the hardcores, ie elitist counter-culture snobs.

 

[Blackjack]

what language did you invent then mr smartypants

I was born and reside in The United States so English is my language. Now, why do you feel the need to butcher my language? Is being a wigger still a thing? I thought that went out with Eminem.

 

[TourIsOverBoyo]

I predict a bunch of raging MMA twinks in this thread. Truth hurts, there's a very close connection between MMA and wrasslin

 

[in the liver]

I was born and reside in The United States so English is my language. Now, why do you feel the need to butcher my language? Is being a wigger still a thing? I thought that went out with Eminem.

americans butcher english, you cant spell properly because y'all are stupid

in informal settings i like to pick and choose from the rich selection of patois heaped on my rich and expansive cultural palette. mind your manners you cultural maggot

 

[in the liver]

Not a beer hipster in any way, I just used that to draw parallels to the attitude of the hardcores, ie elitist counter-culture snobs.

sweet, your next cheap shitty beer is on me

 

[in the liver]

who's never laughed when chael has been sounding off? this is why we need more like him. so if the ufc apes the wwe more, i don't care. its all part of the show.

chael happens to be a funny guy. round about the time conor started ramping up his shit, these "grudge matches" started to become a matter of routine. cormier and jon jones had a pre fight brawl. dominick cruz started talking like a creepy retard about all his opponents. bethe correira started talking about ronda commiting suicide yada yada yada

chael talking about the nog bros feeding carrots to buses isnt the same as making a shitty plotline out of every title fight. i knew of no beef between rory and robbie or cub and doo ho choi

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

That's because MMA is more similar to pro wrestling than the sports are. In combatsports, especially pro wrestling (and face it, MMA is basically pro wrestling without a predetermined outcome). For years before MMA existed, pro wrestling fans would dream of getting the opportunity to get to see their favorite pro wrestlers fight each other for real.

MMA isn't like tennis or baseball or basketball. The intent in MMA is to cause your opponent pain and to damage his body. It's such a primal, violent sport that aesthetics, the most beautiful plays or maneuvers are not what seems this sport to the fans. The fans want to see two fighters who have some sort of a personal difference who will finally get to settle that difference in The Octagon.

So, how does the audience decide who to cheer for and who to boo for? What is their reason for even caring who wins? There isn't a hometown team to cheer for as in most big sports, so how do you get the fans to care who wins and who loses? How do you keep them from being so indifferent about who wins and who loses that they don't just stay home? The way you make the audience care about the fighters is through their personalities!

I don't agree that Mixed Martial Arts is Professional Wrestling without the predetermined outcome. Obviously it is very different from team sports but you could just as easily compare it to Boxing. You could say that MMA is Boxing with less rules. You could also compare it to Martial Arts movies. You can call it the real Bloodsport or real Enter the Dragon. You could compare it to Traditional Martial Arts as well and say that MMA is like Point Karate but full-contact and includes grappling. The point is that MMA is a combat sport and has elements of all combat sports.

As a combat sport where a single fighter competes for himself personality does matter as much as talent. But this is the case in Boxing just as much as Professional Wrestling. Professional Wrestling took it to the extreme becoming a spectacle with storylines, predetermined outcomes, acting and all of the other elements that make Professional Wrestling what it is. Professional Wrestling is not a combat sport. It's more like a circus act or stage performance that mimics combat sports.

MMA is the real deal. I think it is perfectly fine to like MMA and Professional Wrestling. I don't watch Professional Wrestling any more because MMA gives me what I want which is real fighting in a professional competition.

 

[Lockard The GOAT]

No, it wasn't scripted in the mid 80s or even in the early 90s. Back in the 80s one hour matches were commonplace. Wrestlers would have needed memories like computers to memorize a script for an hour long match. As for the interviews and promos, they were not read off a script - they were the products of the imaginations of the wrestlers. In the late 90s Vince McMahon hired writers to start scripting the promos rather than continue to allow wrestlers to improvise their promos. This is documented fact. Dave Meltzer (and many others) can back this up.

I suppose it's a compliment that you don't believe that nobody could possibly have improvised what you saw the wrestlers do and that it must have been scripted.

Stop playing dumb. You know by "scripted", everyone means that the direction of the storylines and the outcome of the matches were all pre-determined beforehand. No one was beefing or competing for real.

 

[ThunderL1ps]

If it wasn't for the contrived drama from TUF, none of you little girls would hate the heel Ronda Rousey.

 

[Blackjack]

Stop playing dumb. You know by "scripted", everyone means that the direction of the storylines and the outcome of the matches were all pre-determined beforehand. No one was beefing or competing for real.

That's not true at all. In the late 90's pro wrestling actually started to become scripted and today it is completely scripted, at least in WWE. They now have writers that write out every word that the wrestlers say in their promos and interviews. Writers for promos or interviews simply didn't exist in pro wrestling prior to then. The words the wrestlers said were improvised; all the words they said came from their own imaginations - not from a writer.

Matches before approximately late 80s or early 90s WWF were improvised. They were told who would win, but the moves in the match were improvised - called by the "heel" wrestler. Today there is no improvisation left as all the moves in the matches are scripted and rehearsed.

I won't ask you to stop playing dumb. I'm convinced being dumb isn't something you were pretending or "playing." Perhaps they have an MMA forum somewhere on the internet which was created especially for people of your somewhat diminished capacity.

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

Clearly there is a connection between pro wrestling and NHB/MMA and you just proved examples of it. If nothing was needed except legitimate matches, pro wrestling, which started out as a shoot, never would have switched to being a work. The reason they switched to working their matches is because they made more money that way. Fans had become bored with the shoot matches.

I watched a documentary in the late 90's (I believe it was called "the unreal story of professional wrestling,") that went into all of this. IIRC the shoot matches had no time limits and would degenerate into guys laying on each other for hours which hurt the appeal too.

I saw that documentary as well. It's on Dailymotion:



This is what the old school Catch Wrestling matches looked like:



MMA has elements of different combat sports including techniques and rules. For the rules I feel it borrowed most heavily from Boxing which became necessary when athletic commissions demanded stricter regulations to sanction fights. The techniques are taken from different disciplines. MMA evolved out of a demand for a combat sport that was less limited than what was available. Some Professional Wrestling fans wanted fights that were real. Some Boxing fans wanted fights that involved more than punching. Some Martial Arts fans wanted fights that were full-contact. Athletes from other combat sports also wanted what MMA had to offer in terms of competition with limited rules. There is a connection between MMA and Professional Wrestling but also a connection with other combat sports.

 

[Blackjack]

I saw that documentary as well. It's on Dailymotion:



This is what the old school Catch Wrestling matches looked like:



MMA has elements of different combat sports including techniques and rules. For the rules I feel it borrowed most heavily from Boxing which became necessary when athletic commissions demanded stricter regulations to sanction fights. The techniques are taken from different disciplines. MMA evolved out of a demand for a combat sport that was less limited than what was available. Some Professional Wrestling fans wanted fights that were real. Some Boxing fans wanted fights that involved more than punching. Some Martial Arts fans wanted fights that were full-contact. Athletes from other combat sports also wanted what MMA had to offer in terms of competition with limited rules. There is a connection between MMA and Professional Wrestling but also a connection with other combat sports.

Although this match is definitely more "snug" in style (realistic and more similar to the amateur style than what pro wrestling would become over the next few decades, the wrestlers are still cooperating with each other.

If Lewis had actually applied that standing headlock, all his opponent would have had to do is pick Lewis up, suplexing Lewis and dumping him on his head. As far as I know the end of the strict shoot era was around 1908 or so. After that there were occasional legitimate matches but they grew increasingly more rare until they disappeared entirely. Lewis had legitimate skills as a shooter and a hooker. He taught a lot to Lou Thesz - possibly the last of the true hookers.

 

[Lockard The GOAT]

That's not true at all. In the late 90's pro wrestling actually started to become scripted and today it is completely scripted, at least in WWE. They now have writers that write out every word that the wrestlers say in their promos and interviews. Writers for promos or interviews simply didn't exist in pro wrestling prior to then. The words the wrestlers said were improvised; all the words they said came from their own imaginations - not from a writer.

Matches before approximately late 80s or early 90s WWF were improvised. They were told who would win, but the moves in the match were improvised - called by the "heel" wrestler. Today there is no improvisation left as all the moves in the matches are scripted and rehearsed.

I won't ask you to stop playing dumb. I'm convinced being dumb isn't something you were pretending or "playing." Perhaps they have an MMA forum somewhere on the internet which was created especially for people of your somewhat diminished capacity.

lol No. They were given bullet points to follow and management backstage still controlled the direction of the promos - Even if the wrestlers were given far more creative freedom to articulate their thoughts as they saw fit. This still happened well into the late 90's - It was actually around 2002/2003 that they brought in former sitcom writers and started scripting nearly every word of what guys said. Even then some guys are still allowed a certain amount of freedom, although not nearly like they used to have.

As for the matches? You're just 100% wrong there. Matches are still called on the fly. The ending is planned out along with any big spots, but the bulk of 'em are pretty much improvised. You can still every now and then hear guys calling moves in the ring, most notably Cena.

 

[MontrealMauler]

I think MMA would be more popular if they allowed Pride Style (which is really just pro rasslin style) entrances. It creates a character without even having to hear them talk. Hardcore MMA fans don't need that but the sport would resonate a lot more with younger audiences and the international demographic.

 

[moldysox1981]

I like the wwe aspect an fake drama it's good for mma for a growing fan base.

I agree that with out it stars will continue to be far am few between an mma will become stagnant at this point in its growth.

 

[Quebec Nick]

Always considered MMA as a sport, always cringe with the press conference, the drama, the twitter wars...

The UFC shouldn't promote that way, because they look like they have nothing when all those hyped up stars don't fight or are on the down road (Conor, Rousey, Silva, Lesnar, Jones, GSP...)

I tune in because I wanna see the best fighters in the world fight each other. I don't really care if they hate each other or if there's a bad guy or a good guy or a former good guy turned a bad guy...

Right now, all the stars are down, they should not try to create new ones but to market their product, the best fights in the world, stars are gonna emerge by their performances. It's not America's got talent, where you need a dying mom or a cancer to be relevant.

 

[Blackjack]

lol No. They were given bullet points to follow and management backstage still controlled the direction of the promos - Even if the wrestlers were given far more creative freedom to articulate their thoughts as they saw fit. This still happened well into the late 90's - It was actually around 2002/2003 that they brought in former sitcom writers and started scripting nearly every word of what guys said. Even then some guys are still allowed a certain amount of freedom, although not nearly like they used to have.

As for the matches? You're just 100% wrong there. Matches are still called on the fly. The ending is planned out along with any big spots, but the bulk of 'em are pretty much improvised. You can still every now and then hear guys calling moves in the ring, most notably Cena.

If I'm 100% wrong then you don't believe that Diamond Dallas Page's matches were "pretty much improvised." He's just one example but a good one because that was still fairly early to be planning out each spot in a match. It just became more and more common after then, especially in WWE. In the indies such as ROH they may very well still call the spots in their matches but I've seen very little of ROH so I'm no authority on how that promotion does things.

I don't know why you insist on arguing with everything I say about the pro wrestling business. I probably know more about it that just about anybody who isn't making a living in and never did work in the business. Before you deny that you're arguing with me just for the sake of it take a look at something. As soon as you started replying to my previous post you were already arguing just for the sake of it and this how you started your reply: "lol No. They were given bullet points to follow and management backstage still controlled the direction of the promos - Even if the wrestlers were given far more creative freedom to articulate their thoughts as they saw fit. This still happened well into the late 90's - It was actually around 2002/2003 that they brought in former sitcom writers and started scripting nearly every word of what guys said."

That's a direct quote from the beginning of your reply where you for some reason felt the need to "correct me" about the scripting of promos. The following is a direct quote of my statement with which you felt the need to argue: "That's not true at all. In the late 90's pro wrestling actually started to become scripted and today it is completely scripted, at least in WWE."

So as you can see, I didn't claim that promos were 100% scripted by the late 90s. The change from allowing the wrestlers to say things in their own words with their own personality didn't happen overnight. In the late 90s Vince hired writers - not booker but writers - people such as Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara who had never set foot in a wrestling ring and had no business trying to be pro wrestling "writers." Mick Foley's book mentions one of them scripting a promo for The Rock. Clearly the process of scripting promos had begun but it was not yet done for all or even most wrestlers. Furthermore I stated that today it is completely scripted and as a general rule, it is. There may be freedom given to a wrestler every once in a while but that is clearly the exception and not the rule.

You stated: "It was actually around 2002/2003 that they brought in former sitcom writers and started scripting nearly every word of what guys said." You're wrong. For example, sitcom writer Brian Gewirtz was hired in 1999." That supports my statement "In the late 90's pro wrestling actually started to become scripted and today it is completely scripted, at least in WWE. They now have writers that write out every word that the wrestlers say in their promos and interviews. Writers for promos or interviews simply didn't exist in pro wrestling prior to then. The words the wrestlers said were improvised; all the words they said came from their own imaginations - not from a writer.

At this point I no longer watch pro wrestling because it no longer exists, at least not on any major level. I don't like "sports entertainment." So, if you'd like to learn about history of pro wrestling, I'm willing to correspond with you. Keep in mind that the days when I liked to argue about pro wrestling are long gone. These days I'm only interested in intelligent agreement regarding the history of pro wrestling.