Minuscule Lower Body Subs in BJJ?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by legend killa, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. legend killa

    legend killa Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    northern cali
    I just read this article on bjj.org talking about what the writer of the article felt where some weeknesses in bjj.This is what he had to say about bjj lower body subs:

    Minuscule lower body submission: Experienced Shootfighters can end the fight against the BJJ elite at a moment's notice. Allan Goes' ankle was badly broken by Frank Shamrock in a Pancrase match. Goes was lucky the referee gave him an escape since he was too close to the edge of the ring. After the cast was taken off his ankle, Goes became determined to master the lower body submission game. During one of his trips to Brazil, he surprised many of his previous grappling partners by applying quick lower body submission techniques. The persisting hostile stance of the BJJ community to lower body submission only adds to this weakness.

    What is your opinion of this article?Does bjj really have a hostile stance towards lower body subs or do bjj guys just dont choose to use them as much has a choke or arm lock?
     
  2. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,441
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Joe's Garage
    i notice that bjj tends to emphasize upper body submissions, but at my gym we cover a good amout of lower body submissions, especially during no gi days. of course some bjj guys, jj machado and marcello come to mind, have pretty good heelhook attacks.

    i think that bjj might not teach lower body submissions from its more nhb-oriented days. going for leglocks sometimes leaves you open for a pounding, while a submission like a triangle is pretty safe.

    so i guess i think its a little bit of both. some bjj gyms dont train leg locks enough, especially with the gi because of sport bjj rules. and i thinka lot of bjj mma fighters choose upperbody submissions because they leave you less exposed when applying them.
     
  3. Lester McGrath

    Lester McGrath Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2004
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Vega Alta, Puerto Rico
    link, please.
     
  4. legend killa

    legend killa Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Messages:
    837
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    northern cali
  5. VanDamme

    VanDamme Green Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2002
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Pancrase was all about leglocks- you werent allowed to hit to the face.

    You could argue that Pancrase fighters pose a threat due to their variety of leglocks, while BJJ fighters posed a threat with their upper body attacks and attacks from the guard.

    Ken Shamrock vs Royce Gracie was an example of when leg locks fail- you end up in a bad position.
     
  6. Yeah, more recently BJJ has placed a higher emphasis on leg locks, it's pretty much necessary to have them at your disposal especially in submission wrestling.
     
  7. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Messages:
    12,688
    Likes Received:
    13,273
    Location:
    USA!USA!USA!
    Gimme a break. Like BJJ guys don't know leglocks, and are completely clueless about them...

    I really liked Van Damme's example of Royce v K shamrock to counter the Goes v F Shamrock example. And more recently you could look at Ken shamrock v Rich Franklin to see what can happen when you go for a leglock.
     
  8. demolidor77

    demolidor77 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Lisbon/Portugal
    Depends on the bjj academy but nowadays specially on the no gi training most bjjers are well versed in leglocks.
     
  9. Dash_Riprock

    Dash_Riprock Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2004
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    0
    Especially if you fall straight to your back like Ken did. IMHO, Ken was not a very skilled technician at the time.
     
  10. Gsoares**

    Gsoares** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2005
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    FL
    alot of places dotn train leg submissions as much strictly to avoid injurys..... To many guys crank them to try an be a bad ass at practice and put people out of the sport for 6months, a year or for the rest of their life.
     
  11. SKD

    SKD Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    948
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    My ex-instructor rolled with a visiting shoot fighter and said he was very careful to avoid leg locks, he pretty much said that is what shootfighting mostly is, takedowns and leglocks.

    Leg locks scare me.
     
  12. TJS

    TJS Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2002
    Messages:
    3,314
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I dont think BJJ dislikes them as a whole. but generally passing the gaurd and maintaning a dominate position is the goal so they arent emphasized.

    I think this is the main reason they arent taught alot to new students..if you learn leg locks early on you may overlook you gaurd passing.
     
  13. Te(V)plar

    Te(V)plar Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2004
    Messages:
    6,692
    Likes Received:
    11
    I thought it was because having a noob cranking on your foot like it's a steering wheel is a sure-fire way to get your shit ruined.
     
  14. ColtonS

    ColtonS Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2005
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    British Columbia Canada
    At my gym we work on all sorts of leg locks. Not really heel hooks but a lot of footlocks kneebars ect.
     
  15. TJS

    TJS Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2002
    Messages:
    3,314
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Austin, Texas

    With heel hooks and toe holds I agree 100%...there are some new people who I wouldent feel comfortable rolling with them because they might crank them.

    but like straight foot locks and knee bars arent really worse than most submissions imo.
     
  16. Gsoares**

    Gsoares** Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2005
    Messages:
    512
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    FL

    This is very good point, passing the guard is some times very difficult. If you teach leg locks to a new person they will get lazy, not try to pass the guard and just keep going for achilies locks.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.