Michael Mann, what happened to you, bruh?

[Guestx]

Last night I re-watched Heat; tonight I thought I'd give Miami Vice another go.

I saw Miami Vice when it was first released and was underwhelmed. But I thought, hell, let's give it another shot and see if my opinion has changed.

Bros, this fucking movie is not good. I got about 40 minutes in and was like, holy shit, I can't do it. I can't keep going with this thing.

The story is uninteresting and, at times, borderlined incoherent. The cinematography is ugly and excessively digital-looking. And the performances are often surprisingly bad, considering the talent involved.

It's just not good. I tried to give it another chance and that was a waste of time. My initial instincts were correct.

And it also got me to thinking about Michael Mann's career. Let's just look at his run during the 90s and early 00s:

The Last of the Mohicans
Heat
The Insider
Ali
Collateral

The only weak link there is Ali and even it was a pretty good film, even if it couldn't hang with the rest in that list.

So just how in the fuck do you go from those films to making Miami Vice, Public Enemies and Blackhat? Not sure about you guys, but I don't consider ANY of those three to be good movies. And it's amazing that the same guy who made movies like Thief and Heat and The Insider also made these fucking things.

What's the deal? Why did Michael Mann become a shitty director? Anyone have theories on this?

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Not even trolling

Miami Vice is one of my favorite movies

The aesthetic is just superb and the soundtrack is pretty great

 

[CrimsonFan]

I liked it alright. Collin Farrell and Jamie Fox have terrible chemistry though. Bad casting

 

[Guestx]

Not even trolling

Miami Vice is one of my favorite movies

The aesthetic is just suburb and the soundtrack is pretty great

You actually like that aesthetic? How do you feel about the digital cinematography?

Most directors who shoot digitally want their movies to look like they were shot on film. Michael Mann seems to go out of his way to make sure everyone knows they were shot on a digital camera. It's almost like he tries to ENHANCE the digital look.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Yeah I thought it was pretty great

I also thought Blackhat was pretty good as well

I don't understand why you seem to be hung up on certain "norms" and I feel like you are afraid to break away sometimes

 

[Pugilistic]

Public Enemies wasn't that bad was it? I remember not loving it, but I didn't think it was terrible.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Public Enemies wasn't that bad was it? I remember not loving it, but I didn't think it was terrible.

That movie relied to much on Depp

So I think it has a lot of lost potential

Not a terrible movie but could have been much better

 

[Guestx]

Yeah I thought it was pretty great

I also thought Blackhat was pretty good as well

I don't understand why you seem to be hung up on certain "norms" and I feel like you are afraid to break away sometimes

It's not about norms, it's about what actually works to make an effective film.

If you enjoyed them, fair enough. But I certainly know I'm not alone in feeling differently.

Miami Vice was boring me to tears before I turned it off. I also found Blackhat to be mostly dull, and occasionally just fucking silly, but I'll at least concede that I liked Blackhat more and made it to the end without too much discomfort. Blackhat had some good things going for it and perhaps with a few more script tweaks it could've been okay.

 

[Guestx]

Public Enemies wasn't that bad was it? I remember not loving it, but I didn't think it was terrible.

Underwhelming is probably the best word for that one. I didn't outright hate it, but I was certainly disappointed and it's not a movie I've felt any desire to watch again.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

It's not about norms, it's about what actually works to make an effective film.

If you enjoyed them, fair enough. But I certainly know I'm not alone in feeling differently.

Miami Vice was boring me to tears before I turned it off. I also found Blackhat to be mostly dull, and occasionally just fucking silly, but I'll at least concede that I liked Blackhat more and made it to the end without too much discomfort. Blackhat had some good things going for it and perhaps with a few more script tweaks it could've been okay.

I don't think a movie needs a good script or good actors or a good story to be a good movie

I think that's where we have different opinions

I think a movie can be good entirely based on visuals alone

 

[Guestx]

I don't think a movie needs a good script or good actors or a good story to be a good movie

I think that's where we have different opinions

I think a movie can be good entirely based on visuals alone

Well that is indeed where we part ways then.

I think that an otherwise uninteresting movie with cool visuals is better than an otherwise uninteresting movie with uninteresting visuals. But as I see it, the foundation of any film is the script. Films are a form of storytelling first and foremost, so if the story is dull then the film is dull, regardless of how many pretty pictures are involved.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Well that is indeed where we part ways then.

I think that an otherwise uninteresting movie with cool visuals is better than an otherwise uninteresting movie with uninteresting visuals. But as I see it, the foundation of any film is the script. Films are a form of storytelling first and foremost, so if the story is dull then the film is dull, regardless of how many pretty pictures are involved.

You like Tron right? I know you don't like Tron for the great acting performances or the amazing story

So I think you are able to get passed that barrier if you are interested enough in what is being show on screen

I don't get hung up on things like story if I am engaged enough in the visuals. I'm not saying story isn't important I'm just saying that I think a movie can thrive on things besides it

Like Me is an example of a movie that I hope can do that but we shall see

 

[Guestx]

You like Tron right? I know you don't like Tron for the great acting performances or the amazing story

So I think you are able to get passed that barrier if you are interested enough in what is being show on screen

I don't get hung up on things like story if I am engaged enough in the visuals. I'm not saying story isn't important I'm just saying that I think a movie can thrive on things besides it

Like Me is an example of a movie that I hope can do that but we shall see

I've said before that I feel like the Tron: Legacy script needed just a little more work, but the story is still interesting enough to keep me entertained.

Yes, the visuals are significant and add greatly to the film, but would I want to just see 120 mins of Tron visuals with no definable narrative? No.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

but would I want to just see 120 mins of Tron visuals with no definable narrative? No.

I wouldn't say no

Could be like a 120 minute long music video. Could be cool

 

[Lights Out 101]

Apparently filming Miami Vice was a complete and utter nightmare, which is probably why the final product ended up being so shit. They had to deal with shit like Jamie Foxx acting like a diva and not leaving his trailer, hurricanes, and hiring actual gang members for location security.

 

[moreorless87]

I must admit I do have a bit of a soft spot for Miami Vice, I mean in some respects(beyond Farrell's facial hair) its quite a silly film but still as an exersize in style I find it enjoyable.

Really though I don't think you can fault Mann for dropping off with age, from Thief to Collateral in 23 years, that's a good run at the top for a director.

 

[moreorless87]

I've said before that I feel like the Tron: Legacy script needed just a little more work, but the story is still interesting enough to keep me entertained.

Yes, the visuals are significant and add greatly to the film, but would I want to just see 120 mins of Tron visuals with no definable narrative? No.

Dramatically I felt it was fine and indeed actually a good deal smarter than expected, the problem to me seemed more that it felt like it was a bit light in its middle act(maybe Sam spending somewhat longer sent in the city before we get to Castor pushing the political situation) and ironically action wise, good scenes at the start/end but not much inbetween.

 

[minute bull]

MIAMI VICE > HEAT

Mann is better than ever.

 

[Zer]

Public Enemies wasn't that bad was it? I remember not loving it, but I didn't think it was terrible.

As much as I love Mann, I thought Public Enemies was absolute gash. I never did see Miami Vice though. Should probably check that out

 

[moreorless87]

As much as I love Mann, I thought Public Enemies was absolute gash. I never did see Miami Vice though. Should probably check that out

Its basically classic Heat/Collateral style but in service of a much more straight forward(and more over the top) crime thriller, if you can get past Ferrell's facial hair I think you'd probably enjoy it.

Maybe I just enjoyed it because it made staying at that hotel above Igassu falls they use for the villains lair seems more exotic though.