mendes bros concept for de la riva in gi for no gi?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by 10thplanetbjj, Dec 26, 2012.

  1. 10thplanetbjj

    10thplanetbjj Blue Belt

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    Does anyone know an alternative for breaking the guys posture or making him super off balance to kick him to the side and make him fall over in de la riva for no gi? The mendes bros are big on pulling the belt in de la riva, so the guy comes close to you an then you kick him over. Of course its great for gi but in no gi there is no belt to grab. Anyone know would be a good alternative? Ive tried kicking away instead of pulling inwards but im sure there is something else im missing. Still in no gi i prefer reverse de la riva much more than traditional. Thanks

    Looks like this

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  2. Badabing1234

    Badabing1234 Orange Belt

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    Maybe you can try grabbing onto the hip bone? But you cant pull down on the belt like rafa does.

    I much prefer doing x guard or reverse de la riva in no gi.
     
  3. zomoplata

    zomoplata Green Belt

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    I'm assuming your talking about knocking him over to berimbolo? Nogi the mendes bros would use the underhook on the same leg as the dlr hook was on. They used the underhook to knock over the opponent as well as invert.
     
  4. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    You can grab the hip bone/top of the thigh, but like someone else said, it's nowhere near as strong as the belt grip.

    The Mendes bros may have a way of getting the hips on the mat from DLR in no gi, but my experience from watching them and rolling myself, is that you're better off taking advantage of a standing opponent by either spinning into X-guard or going for a conventional 'crab ride' back take (either from DLR or spinning under from RDLR), and then using the berimbolo in situations where the opponent helps you put his hips on the mat. One very commonly seen scenario with guys who play this type of game in no gi, is switching to the berimbolo after spinning through from RDLR, as the opponent brings his hips low and tries to 'sit over' via reverse half to avoid the crab ride.

    Watch Ary Farias @ 0:43 and onward in this clip. Not the best view of the transition, and he eventually bails on the berimbolo for an omoplata, but you can see that he switches his hand positioning to get from the 'post spin-under' RDLR position to the berimbolo. There are quite a few clips of the Miyao brothers where they utilize the same transition.

     
  5. ZGSON

    ZGSON Blue Belt

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    I've had some success with grabbing the wrist, but its easy for them to pull it away, so they have to kind of let you have it because they don't think you have anything.

    I've had more success with basically reaching as far as I can around the back while in DLR which helps to force them over and somewhat emulates grabbing the belt. You can't grab anything, but you can keep reaching further around their back as if you are trying to climb with just your palms, is the best way I can describe it. I think there is a Rafa video of him doing this from a few years ago.
     
  6. BJJArsenal

    BJJArsenal Brown Belt

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    I know that when going for the RDLR sweep where they take you over the top they go for an arm-drag grip in no-gi, so that might work the same for the berimbolo set-up? So, left hook on their right leg, left hand grabs their ankle and right hand grabs their left-tricep?

    Not actually tried that, just a theory. I tend to wait for them to be sitting down to engage my guard before I go for a no-gi berimbolo where I grab the wrist or just try to do it without an arm.
     
  7. bjjaz

    bjjaz Got the Rock...Time to Roll

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    Grab the wrist.

    Grab the arm.

    Grab the ankle and start going to the back, when they sit down to block you're there.

    Push them w/ your free leg.
     
  8. 10thplanetbjj

    10thplanetbjj Blue Belt

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    most of the suggestions are from RDLR though, thats what ive been doing. i guess the answer is there is no good same style option in no gi for DLR.
     
  9. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    No there's definitely a good answer. I wish I could help. A friend did a no-gi seminar with the Mendes Bros and they covered the berimbolo on the no-gi day. But I never pressed for any details. I'll try and ask for you
     
  10. hamoom

    hamoom Purple Belt

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    i asked guilherme about this and he told me that the berimbolo for no gi isnt as good of a position. you can still play dlr in no gi, but your control and options are more limited.

    rdlr is closer to being the same gi and no gi
     
  11. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Nice to get an answer from a source at AOJ. Thanks!
     
  12. StevenCrowder

    StevenCrowder wiener

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    I'll be honest, I really don't get the RLDR thing these days.

    I have a tremendous amount of respect for anybody skilled in any area of grappling, but as a bigger guy, it just seems like one is begging to be passed... hard. Not to mention the leg lock opportunities from both sides that would seem to personify "minimum energy/maximum efficiency" from the same position.

    I do like DLR though. Just not quite sold on RLDR unless used as a blazing fast transition to something else.
     
  13. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    In what manner would you say a RDLR player is begging to get passed? Knee-cut?

    Also, I don't see how you're more vulnerable to leg locks in RDLR than in DLR.
     
  14. bjjaz

    bjjaz Got the Rock...Time to Roll

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    I've been to their seminar and they covered nogi berimbolo. I'm sure there are different ways to do it, but the main focus is just trying to get the opponent to sit their weight back, which has a lot of different ways to do it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
  15. StevenCrowder

    StevenCrowder wiener

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    Knee cut, and if they can break any of the control points (be it grip or hook), it's pretty easy to base out and do most standing passes.

    I'm pretty sure that guys like Rodolfo (and similar heavy passers) are looking for opponents to go RDLR so that they can have a field day.

    But as a brief transitional position, it has its uses, even with heavier people.
     
  16. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Have you seen Rodolfo vs. Rafa in the absolute in Abu Dhabi Pro no gi? Rafa kept Rodolfo at bay using mostly RDLR for the entire duration of the match, not once being in real danger of getting passed (IIRC).

    EDIT: Here's the fight. Rafa doesn't actually stay in RDLR for very long each time (though he still uses it a shitload throughout), but that's because Rodolfo backs out and resets constantly, not wanting any part of Rafa's RDLR game:

     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
  17. StevenCrowder

    StevenCrowder wiener

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    Awesome vid!

    Though I would argue that it kind of proves what I'm saying, in that Rafa seemed to approach it as more of a transition than a stable position.

    My guard passing is mainly centered around basing out and attempting to completely negate one's ability to play guard (much like Rodolfo in theory, certainly not skill).

    It's just an opinion, but in my experience and based on my observations, if small people use RDLR against big passers as anything more than a transitional position, it doesn't take very long for them to get figured out and passed.

    But it all depends on the player, that's the beauty of grappling!
     
  18. ASMBJJ

    ASMBJJ Blue Belt

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    this
     
  19. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Well, most of the attacks from RDLR can be considered transitions to other positions, be it as you recover full guard to attack upper body limbs that the opponent exposes during passing, or sit up on the single leg, or switch to the berimbolo or transition to X-guard. I see it more as a highly versatile and easily acquired 'hub' position whose few attacks - though quite high percentage - are best used to create predictable openings for more dominant controls. If you play it as a static position trying to stall out the pass, then yes, it will probably eventually get dismantled by someone skilled with a size advantage, but IMO that's a pointless way of playing it. Rafa constantly transitions because he is constantly either going for something, capitalizing on openings created by Rodolfo, or recovering and resetting every time he is in danger of losing position. The latter happens not so much because Rodolfo is able to gradually smash the RDLR, but because he constantly disengages by backing out, trying to rid himself of Rafa's leg control before reengaging.
     
  20. 10thplanetbjj

    10thplanetbjj Blue Belt

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    i see what your saying but RDLR is really good to control distance and you can switch to any type of guard from there. of course you dont want to just sit there. i do find in no gi though its alot easier to get passed. in gi with the grips its really good. like especially guys in no gi that are fast and are good at the marcelo type pass it can be annoying. but if you are good enough at it you can use the hook or the foot over the leg when there knee is down to bring there leg back in when people try to sprawl. of course everything has counters though, but like for example when guys sprawl back they usually leave an opening for something else, like ill switch inverted to try berimbolo etc. ive done it to higher level guys who have tried to sprawl out and then they realize there leg is stuck cause im pulling them back in, by the time they react ive already inverted and taken their back. the sweeps are alot sweeter in no gi cause no grips to slow down the spin imo. btw though i do get caught in this rolling toe hold sometimes from RDLR this purple does to me, the same way cyborg does it. that is super annoying

    btw sort of off topic but if its true the deep underhook in DLR is banned by IBJJF now for knee reaping?

    heres an example at 2:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMzzc1mlANI
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012

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