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Max Holloway vs Calvin Kattar discussion

You have the sequence of events wrong. Stephens broke his nose, then he fought Ige 1 month later before his broken nose was healed.
Hmmm I guess what I meant by that is that he broke it twice, not the timeline I do recall Ige was after Stephens

definitely smashed his nose against Stephens in a double impact ending then reinjured or broke it again against Ige

he said as much

"I'll take, it man," Kattar said of potentially reinjuring his nose. "I think it's tough to not get damage in my fights with my style."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/29471957/calvin-kattar-defeats-dan-ige-unanimous-decision?platform=amp

but it is correct that he went into ige way earlier than expected
 
Hmmm I guess what I meant by that is that he broke it twice, not the timeline I do recall Ige was after Stephens

definitely smashed his nose against Stephens in a double impact ending then reinjured or broke it again against Ige

he said as much

"I'll take, it man," Kattar said of potentially reinjuring his nose. "I think it's tough to not get damage in my fights with my style."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/29471957/calvin-kattar-defeats-dan-ige-unanimous-decision?platform=amp

but it is correct that he went into ige way earlier than expected

He went in with his nose not fully healed, that's why it broke again. It's been six months and it's fully healed now, so it shouldn't be as vulnerable as it was in the ige fight. Who really knows, though. I guess we'll find out.
 
Looking foward to this fight.
Both Max and Kattar are fun to watch.

My guess would be Kattar wins by decision.
 
I've seen some suggest that Calvin might be able to beat Max the same way Dustin could -- by being able to match him in regards to boxing fundamentals while being the bigger man in the cage, more powerful, with longer reach, etc. However, Dustin had the cardio and experience to consistently hang with Holloway for 5 rounds and pressure him for the duration. Even then, Poirier took plenty of shots and lost one (arguably two) round(s) depending on who you ask.

The other thing to keep in mind is that when Max fought Dustin, it was at 155 and Max basically looked like he didn't bulk up to fight at 155. So Dustin had the size advantage too.

Dustin said right after that fight that he was thinking of moving up to 170 because the weight cutting was getting hard. Dustin is a very thicc now. It was a good move for him to go to 155, he looked so drawn out at 145.
 
Max has only gone 5 full rounds 4 times, and he lost 3 of those fights. Kattar has gone 5 rounds two times and looked better in championship rounds than the early rounds. I'm not disagreeing with you though, max certainly has the experience advantage in big fights and five rounders, but I've seen nothing to suggest that conditioning is a problem for kattar.

Context is important here. The first time Kattar went 5 rounds was on the regional scene. And I think Ige was just outmatched in more ways than one -- not that he's a bad fighter by any means, I think Kattar was simply the better man in there and a bad stylistic match-up for him.

***

Max's three losses in five-round fights have been as follows:
  • A loss at Dustin Poirier in which he fought at 155 lbs. It's generally agreed that he was "bloated" (as @taugrim alluded to) and didn't execute the build-up to Lightweight in an optimal manner. Even if he had, Dustin has some of the best cardio at Lightweight himself and would have been have been easily capable of matching him in a five-round war. Max managed to take 1-2 rounds off him all the same, depending on who you ask. His output remained relatively steady, but he of course got his bell rung by the bigger, more powerful boxer across five rounds. Again, I would argue that his cardio and ability to fight five rounds at 145 isn't a problem IMO.
  • A loss to Volkanovski -- a well-conditioned fighter in his own right who came prepared to execute a gameplan and has excellent cardio of his own. This is a convincing loss and no argument to be made here. He let the shit get kicked out of his legs. I don't know why there was ever any controversy about this defeat, no immediate rematch was needed IMO despite what his deluded fan club might say. However, for what it's worth Holloway's output never really faded -- cardio was not his issue here.
  • A second (split decision) loss to Volkanovski that is still argued about to this day. That being said, most would agree that Volk came on stronger in the championship rounds, so I'll give you that -- but again, Alexander is a really well-conditioned fighter in his own right and Max was hardly gassing late or anything. I just think he chose to start sooner than he usually does.
Point of order -- Max has actually gone five rounds on the regional scene prior to coming to the UFC before, but I know you were probably talking about his time in the Octagon only. And the Ortega bout (in which Max threw a blistering amount of significant strikes) made it well into the championship rounds, for what that's worth.

***

Anyways, I'm not trying to trump up Max's resume or shit on Calvin Kattar by implying that he has no cardio. He might very well go out there and be able to stand with Max for all five rounds and maintain a respectable pace. That'd be great -- as someone who'll be rooting for him, I really hope he does. But I can't help but value Max's experience, chin, cardio, and heart -- all of which have been proven in five-round fights against a higher-level of competition than that which Calvin Kattar has faced. Fingers are crossed for Kattar to get the upset, though.
 
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Wow, people really think this will be so close?

In a 5 rounder I got Max all day.
 
Context is important here. One of the times Kattar looked so good in the championship rounds was against Zabit, a fighter who for all his talent falls off badly in long fights. And I think Ige was just outmatched in more ways than one -- not that he's a bad fighter by any means, I think Kattar was simply the better man in there and a bad stylistic match-up for him.

***

Max's three losses in five-round fights have been as follows:
  • A loss at Dustin Poirier in which he fought at 155 lbs. It's generally agreed that he was "bloated" (as @taugrim alluded to) and didn't execute the build-up to Lightweight in an optimal manner. Even if he had, Dustin has some of the best cardio at Lightweight himself and would have been have been easily capable of matching him in a five-round war. Max managed to take 1-2 rounds off him all the same, depending on who you ask. His output remained relatively steady, but he of course got his bell rung by the bigger, more powerful boxer across five rounds. Again, I would argue that his cardio and ability to fight five rounds at 145 isn't a problem IMO.
  • A loss to Volkanovski -- a well-conditioned fighter in his own right who came prepared to execute a gameplan and has excellent cardio of his own. This is a convincing loss and no argument to be made here. He let the shit get kicked out of his legs. I don't know why there was ever any controversy about this defeat, no immediate rematch was needed IMO despite what his deluded fan club might say. However, for what it's worth Holloway's output never really faded -- cardio was not his issue here.
  • A second (split decision) loss to Volkanovski that is still argued about to this day. That being said, most would agree that Volk came on stronger in the championship rounds, so I'll give you that -- but again, Alexander is a really well-conditioned fighter in his own right and Max was hardly gassing late or anything. I just think he chose to start sooner than he usually does.
Point of order -- Max has actually gone five rounds on the regional scene prior to coming to the UFC before, but I know you were probably talking about his time in the Octagon only. And the Ortega bout (in which Max threw a blistering amount of significant strikes) made it well into the championship rounds, for what that's worth.

***

Anyways, I'm not trying to trump up Max's resume or shit on Calvin Kattar by implying that he has no cardio. He might very well go out there and be able to stand with Max for all five rounds and maintain a respectable pace. That'd be great -- as someone who'll be rooting for him, I really hope he does. But I can't help but value Max's experience, chin, cardio, and heart -- all of which have been proven in five-round fights against a higher-level of competition than that which Calvin Kattar has faced. Fingers are crossed for Kattar to get the upset, though.


Yeah, no problem with that notion. Although I'd say that the only time Max won a five rounder was against Edgar, and it wasn't because of cardio. Idk. I just don't think cardio is as big of a deal in this fight as you're making it out to be.

I do agree that it's impossible to ignore Max's experience though, but it's also impossible to ignore that he struggled against taller guys with solid boxing fundamentals and that he loses to everyone that matches his output -- Kattar checks both of those boxes. I made a thread about this the other day:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...way-stat-i-discovered.4153501/#post-163066683
 
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This fight reminds me of Diaz McGregor. On one hand we got a guy with crisp boxing and great power (Kattar) and on the other hand we have a volume boxer with great endurance. The thing is Max has a good chin and Kattar doesn’t really slow down that much.

Really tough pick but I gotta go with Max in this spot because I wasn’t really impressed with Kattar in his last performance while I was really surprised how good Max looked against Volk in the rematch (I thought he won the fight). Your only as good as your last fight I guess.

You really can’t give Max enough credit for bouncing back against Volk like that. How many times have we ever seen a guy lose his belt to the next generation and then look better in the rematch, let alone on such a short turnaround. I completely agreed with Volk’s coaches when they said there just hadn’t been enough time to adapt (especially given that Max is pretty one dimensional). Penn vs Edgar, Aldo vs Max, Franklin vs Anderson, Anderson vs Weidman, Hughes vs GSP (II vs III)....those are all different fights but the outcome was always just as bad or worse. Max retooling on the fly like that and kicking ass for ten minutes was amazing. Sad for him that he couldn’t find the one decent thirty-second stretch he needed during the final fifteen minutes to steal one more round.

This is interesting. Calvin’s boxing is really crisp, but the Ige fight has me wondering if maybe we’ve overrated his defense somewhat. Either way, this should be a chance for Max to really let his hands go and see what he has left. Volk is really more about defense and nullification than he isn’t about offense these days, but the same can’t be said for Kattar.

Great fight. Big opportunity for Kattar (reminds me a lot of the opportunity that Font just had to be honest — is he going to settle in as second tier or vault right back into the title picture?)
 
Yeah, no problem with that notion. Although I'd say that the only time Max won a five rounder was against Edgar, and it wasn't because of cardio. Idk. I just don't think cardio is as big of a deal in this fight as you're making it out to be.

I do agree that it's impossible to ignore Max's experience though, but it's also impossible to ignore that he loses to everyone that matches his output. I made a thread about this the other day:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...way-stat-i-discovered.4153501/#post-163066683

I don't think cardio is going to be the sole deciding factor. I just think it's one of the proven things along with Max's experience, chin, etc. that I tend to value in this fight... in any given fight, really.. It certainly can't hurt and has rarely let Max down before, is what I'm getting at.

That's an interesting stat, thanks for sharing. I definitely agree with your sentiment in that thread -- this will be a close, hard-fought match. I might be favoring Blessed, but that being said...

War Kattar!
 
Yeah, no problem with that notion. Although I'd say that the only time Max won a five rounder was against Edgar, and it wasn't because of cardio. Idk. I just don't think cardio is as big of a deal in this fight as you're making it out to be.

I do agree that it's impossible to ignore Max's experience though, but it's also impossible to ignore that he struggled against taller guys with solid boxing fundamentals and that he
loses to everyone that matches his output -- Kattar checks both of those boxes. I made a thread about this the other day:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...way-stat-i-discovered.4153501/#post-163066683

I don’t necessarily disagree with any of that, but I do think that the “matching his output” is a tricky stat to look at. There’s usually been a tipping point in Max’s big wins in which he just starts to click and the opponent can’t deal with the combination of volume and accuracy. Cardio is a part of that to be sure. But to me it’s more complicated than the other guy tiring first. A big part of it is that getting stung over and over again is really hard to deal with. Poirier and Volk (the first time) pre-empted that surge by landing their own offense first (Poirier to the head, Volk to the legs). I think Calvin needs to implement that Poirier blueprint so that Max isn’t at full strength when that tipping point arrives in the third or fourth round.
 
You really can’t give Max enough credit for bouncing back against Volk like that. How many times have we ever seen a guy lose his belt to the next generation and then look better in the rematch, let alone on such a short turnaround. I completely agreed with Volk’s coaches when they said there just hadn’t been enough time to adapt (especially given that Max is pretty one dimensional). Penn vs Edgar, Aldo vs Max, Franklin vs Anderson, Anderson vs Weidman, Hughes vs GSP (II vs III)....those are all different fights but the outcome was always just as bad or worse. Max retooling on the fly like that and kicking ass for ten minutes was amazing. Sad for him that he couldn’t find the one decent thirty-second stretch he needed during the final fifteen minutes to steal one more round.

This is interesting. Calvin’s boxing is really crisp, but the Ige fight has me wondering if maybe we’ve overrated his defense somewhat. Either way, this should be a chance for Max to really let his hands go and see what he has left. Volk is really more about defense and nullification than he isn’t about offense these days, but the same can’t be said for Kattar.

Great fight. Big opportunity for Kattar (reminds me a lot of the opportunity that Font just had to be honest — is he going to settle in as second tier or vault right back into the title picture?)

I think people just underrate ige to be honest. Kattar shut down his 6 fight win streak with a busted nose from the Stephens fight and a busted hand, won 4 rounds to 1. Idk, I think people look at the negatives more than the positives with that fight.

The most interesting part of this fight with max is seeing how he tries to deal with the jab. 5'5 volkanovski had tons of success with his jab, so I'm really curious to see if kattar, who is 5'11 with more reach and possibly the best jab in the division, will be able to find it on max.
 
With a big win here, Kattar catapults into stardom

people are still sleeping on this guy
 
I don’t necessarily disagree with any of that, but I do think that the “matching his output” is a tricky stat to look at. There’s usually been a tipping point in Max’s big wins in which he just starts to click and the opponent can’t deal with the combination of volume and accuracy. Cardio is a part of that to be sure. But to me it’s more complicated than the other guy tiring first. A big part of it is that getting stung over and over again is really hard to deal with. Poirier and Volk (the first time) pre-empted that surge by landing their own offense first (Poirier to the head, Volk to the legs). I think Calvin needs to implement that Poirier blueprint so that Max isn’t at full strength when that tipping point arrives in the third or fourth round.

For me, I've always seen max as a slow starter. He nearly always takes a round to make reads (lost round one to Edgar and aldo, for example, had cautious round one against many others too) then when he makes his reads he starts piling on the output and people with suspect cardio (Aldo) or mediocre striking (ortega at the time) crumble under that pressure.

Poirier stiffled a lot of that with power and punching with Max at the same time. Volk stiffled It by having one of the most elaborate feint games in the sport-- max couldn't get his reads till the end of the first fight. Then he came back in the rematch ready to adjust, but then volk adjusted mid fight as well.
 
I think similar to the Aldo fight where Max drops a couple of rounds but starts to turn the volume up around 8 minutes in and drowns Kattar with volume.
 
I think people just underrate ige to be honest. Kattar shut down his 6 fight win streak with a busted nose from the Stephens fight and a busted hand, won 4 rounds to 1. Idk, I think people look at the negatives more than the positives with that fight.

The most interesting part of this fight with max is seeing how he tries to deal with the jab. 5'5 volkanovski had tons of success with his jab, so I'm really curious to see if kattar, who is 5'11 with more reach and possibly the best jab in the division, will be able to find it on max.

Yea those are good thoughts. Ige is very tough but CK was never really in any danger.
 
i want kattar to win but i expect max to keep the pressure on and tire him
 
Man what a matchup!!. I really never bet against Max but I could see Kattar being a really tough fight.
He's a big featherweight at 5'11, has really crisp boxing, and I can really see him out boxing Max.

Then again... Calvin's fights against Zabit and Carneiro did show some holes Max should be able to capitalize on.... My heart says we are gonna get a straight up beast mode, championship caliber Max Holloway performance after losing his belt.

Max Holloway by Unanimous Decision in a war is my pick. Picks and thoughts my fellow Sherdoggers?
Kattar outbox Max?
 
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