Man injures opponent with flying scissor; Reddit thread discusses the idea of suing him

[empsim]

OK, groomer.

If that's the best you could come up with, I guess you got the point

 

[mattemate]

If that's the best you could come up with, I guess you got the point

Not worth my time.

 

[mattemate]

I see what you're saying, but I don't blame Max's brother for his generosity, I blame Butler for his evil. And who knows what Butler was like in their personal friendships with him. Maybe they saw things that made them think they knew a different side of him or perhaps it came off as if the sucker punch against Richard Grant was a sort of aberration with Butler. Hard to say. Evil people are often great manipulators.

Oh, I agree. I'm not victim blaming. But he DID make himself an easy target.
Guys like Butler have no place in society.
The fact that he'll be free at some point is absurd.
The man should be executed.
Our lenient justice system will sacrifice another innocent person to him in the name of fairness and understanding.
Butler is definitely the bad guy here.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

So if slamming isn’t allowed and you triangle me and I pick you up and slam you on your neck, ending with you being partially paralyzed, you wouldn’t sue?

If someone does an illegal move to me whether it be back of the head punches, a sidekick to the knee in amateur competition, a soccer kick while im downed or a scissor sweep I’d be super pissed if I get injured. And yes I would consider getting compensation

How about if I get you in a heel hook and I just don’t respect the tap? Maybe I tear 3/4 of your ligaments to shreds. It’s all good though shit happens in competition right?

I ain’t down with that shit. I’ve seen peoples lives changed so many times from injuries. I’ve seen illegal moves done to teammates that have absolutely fucked their shit up. I’ve had shit done to me in training that permanently altered my breathing and my nose. I’m in the fight game but anything unnecessary I’m way over putting up with that shit. Trust me when dumb shit happens to you it makes you want to kill a motherfucker. I’m getting heated just thinking about all the times I’ve been wronged or seen it done to others

 

[mattemate]

So if slamming isn’t allowed and you triangle me and I pick you up and slam you on your neck, ending with you being partially paralyzed, you wouldn’t sue?

If someone does an illegal move to me whether it be back of the head punches, a sidekick to the knee in amateur competition, a soccer kick while im downed or a scissor sweep I’d be super pissed if I get injured. And yes I would consider getting compensation

How about if I get you in a heel hook and I just don’t respect the tap? Maybe I tear 3/4 of your ligaments to shreds. It’s all good though shit happens in competition right?

I ain’t down with that shit. I’ve seen peoples lives changed so many times from injuries. I’ve seen illegal moves done to teammates that have absolutely fucked their shit up. I’ve had shit done to me in training that permanently altered my breathing and my nose. I’m in the fight game but anything unnecessary I’m way over putting up with that shit. Trust me when dumb shit happens to you it makes you want to kill a motherfucker. I’m getting heated just thinking about all the times I’ve been wronged or seen it done to others

The rules exist to limit injuries. If an injury occurs within the context of the rules, that's consensual or at worst accidental.

If a rule is intentionally violated and results in an injury that would not have otherwise occurred, you've broken the contract and IMO should be held accountable to the same extent as if it were to occur in everyday life.

For example if boxers clash heads and one is cut or badly hurt, it was an accident. But if one headbutts another intentionally, now we're into the realm of battery.

 

[Kforcer]

So if slamming isn’t allowed and you triangle me and I pick you up and slam you on your neck, ending with you being partially paralyzed, you wouldn’t sue?

If someone does an illegal move to me whether it be back of the head punches, a sidekick to the knee in amateur competition, a soccer kick while im downed or a scissor sweep I’d be super pissed if I get injured. And yes I would consider getting compensation

How about if I get you in a heel hook and I just don’t respect the tap? Maybe I tear 3/4 of your ligaments to shreds. It’s all good though shit happens in competition right?

I ain’t down with that shit. I’ve seen peoples lives changed so many times from injuries. I’ve seen illegal moves done to teammates that have absolutely fucked their shit up. I’ve had shit done to me in training that permanently altered my breathing and my nose. I’m in the fight game but anything unnecessary I’m way over putting up with that shit. Trust me when dumb shit happens to you it makes you want to kill a motherfucker. I’m getting heated just thinking about all the times I’ve been wronged or seen it done to others

I've definitely been injured by cheaters a number of times. I have a rib that permanently sticks out because of someone who dropped his knee down on me while I was slowly applying a leglock (in practice). I had an injury that slowed me down greatly back when I was competing and sort of derailed things for me that came as a result of a can-opener (which I believe was illegal in the tournament, I'd have to look back and check, I remember hearing different things). I lost to a guy in the finals of a wrestling match because he injured my shoulder with an illegal slam while I was seemingly on the way to tech-falling him (I had been taking him down and letting him up). He actually illegally slammed me and injured me in the finals the year before that as well. I was kicked in the face by my class instructor at Severn's Coldwater gym because he didn't like getting caught in leglocks; in that case, reflex and instinct took over and I jerked the Achilles lock with everything I had and actually hurt him a bit. But his stomp made a mess of my nose. I've actually taken a few stomps from people who wanted out of leglocks.

Anyway, point is, I've been there. But I don't know if I would have sued any of them, just because I'm not sure if there was exactly malice aforethought or of it was just something that came over them in the heat of the moment. I mean, in some cases, they did make a deliberate choice and even copped to as much, but somehow suing just doesn't seem right because things can happen in the heat of the moment and even where people did do things intentionally, that would seem hard to really truly establish or to know for my satisfaction.

But mostly, I was just thinking about the posts that totally vilified the move altogether. I've spent so much time practice that move and similar moves and my proudest grappling moment came from a move that is fairly similar--though closer perhaps to a Viktor's roll--that it just throws me off to see so much disdain for the move and even for the whole approach of utilizing flying or rolling submissions altogether in the case of some posts.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

I've definitely been injured by cheaters a number of times. I have a rib that permanently sticks out because of someone who dropped his knee down on me while I was slowly applying a leglock (in practice). I had an injury that slowed me down greatly back when I was competing and sort of derailed things for me that came as a result of a can-opener (which I believe was illegal in the tournament, I'd have to look back and check, I remember hearing different things). I lost to a guy in the finals of a wrestling match because he injured my shoulder with an illegal slam while I was seemingly on the way to tech-falling him (I had been taking him down and letting him up). He actually illegally slammed me and injured me in the finals the year before that as well. I was kicked in the face by my class instructor at Severn's Coldwater gym because he didn't like getting caught in leglocks; in that case, reflex and instinct took over and I jerked the Achilles lock with everything I had and actually hurt him a bit. But his stomp made a mess of my nose. I've actually taken a few stomps from people who wanted out of leglocks.

Anyway, point is, I've been there. But I don't know if I would have sued any of them, just because I'm not sure if there was exactly malice aforethought or of it was just something that came over them in the heat of the moment. I mean, in some cases, they did make a deliberate choice and even copped to as much, but somehow suing just doesn't seem right because things can happen in the heat of the moment and even where people did do things intentionally, that would seem hard to really truly establish or to know for my satisfaction.

But mostly, I was just thinking about the posts that totally vilified the move altogether. I've spent so much time practice that move and similar moves and my proudest grappling moment came from a move that is fairly similar--though closer perhaps to a Viktor's roll--that it just throws me off to see so much disdain for the move and even for the whole approach of utilizing flying or rolling submissions altogether in the case of some posts.

I’ve had teammates go to the hospital for back of the head punches and 12-6 elbows to the back of the head while the ref does nothing to stop it. He even got kneed in the face while down. I never considered suing but I yelled at the ref while I was cornering and talked to the ref and the athletic commission that it was fucked up they allowed this guy to basically die in the cage.
Yeah I wouldn’t sue cuz it’s a hassle but I’ve definitely had revenge on my mind when people fuck me up before

 

[yetanother]

But mostly, I was just thinking about the posts that totally vilified the move altogether. I've spent so much time practice that move and similar moves and my proudest grappling moment came from a move that is fairly similar--though closer perhaps to a Viktor's roll--that it just throws me off to see so much disdain for the move and even for the whole approach of utilizing flying or rolling submissions altogether in the case of some posts.

Its a dangerous move that was done by some unskilled shit in a crappy extra dangerous manner in a setting where it was not allowed.

 

[Kforcer]

Its a dangerous move that was done by some unskilled shit in a crappy extra dangerous manner in a setting where it was not allowed.

I think it is more or less dangerous depending on how you do it. I don't think I've ever hurt anyone with one.

 

[yetanother]

I think it is more or less dangerous depending on how you do it. I don't think I've ever hurt anyone with one.

The way the that little shit does it is super dangerous.
I don't know how you do this but the way I have seen it done by high level people it still seems to be an element of risk in it.

 

[Kforcer]

The way the that little shit does it is super dangerous.
I don't know how you do this but the way I have seen it done by high level people it still seems to be an element of risk in it.

Well, any takedown has a risk. If you do a cross-body scissors as I mentioned in my first post, there's almost no risk, except possibly to you. Or at least, a minimal risk. If you drop down as you execute the move, there's also little risk. Likewise, if you just don't make a cutting motion with your legs, you reduce a lot of the issues.

 

[ChickenBrother]

So if slamming isn’t allowed and you triangle me and I pick you up and slam you on your neck, ending with you being partially paralyzed, you wouldn’t sue?

If someone does an illegal move to me whether it be back of the head punches, a sidekick to the knee in amateur competition, a soccer kick while im downed or a scissor sweep I’d be super pissed if I get injured. And yes I would consider getting compensation

How about if I get you in a heel hook and I just don’t respect the tap? Maybe I tear 3/4 of your ligaments to shreds. It’s all good though shit happens in competition right?

I ain’t down with that shit. I’ve seen peoples lives changed so many times from injuries. I’ve seen illegal moves done to teammates that have absolutely fucked their shit up. I’ve had shit done to me in training that permanently altered my breathing and my nose. I’m in the fight game but anything unnecessary I’m way over putting up with that shit. Trust me when dumb shit happens to you it makes you want to kill a motherfucker. I’m getting heated just thinking about all the times I’ve been wronged or seen it done to others

I've definitely been injured by cheaters a number of times. I have a rib that permanently sticks out because of someone who dropped his knee down on me while I was slowly applying a leglock (in practice). I had an injury that slowed me down greatly back when I was competing and sort of derailed things for me that came as a result of a can-opener (which I believe was illegal in the tournament, I'd have to look back and check, I remember hearing different things). I lost to a guy in the finals of a wrestling match because he injured my shoulder with an illegal slam while I was seemingly on the way to tech-falling him (I had been taking him down and letting him up). He actually illegally slammed me and injured me in the finals the year before that as well. I was kicked in the face by my class instructor at Severn's Coldwater gym because he didn't like getting caught in leglocks; in that case, reflex and instinct took over and I jerked the Achilles lock with everything I had and actually hurt him a bit. But his stomp made a mess of my nose. I've actually taken a few stomps from people who wanted out of leglocks.

Anyway, point is, I've been there. But I don't know if I would have sued any of them, just because I'm not sure if there was exactly malice aforethought or of it was just something that came over them in the heat of the moment. I mean, in some cases, they did make a deliberate choice and even copped to as much, but somehow suing just doesn't seem right because things can happen in the heat of the moment and even where people did do things intentionally, that would seem hard to really truly establish or to know for my satisfaction.

But mostly, I was just thinking about the posts that totally vilified the move altogether. I've spent so much time practice that move and similar moves and my proudest grappling moment came from a move that is fairly similar--though closer perhaps to a Viktor's roll--that it just throws me off to see so much disdain for the move and even for the whole approach of utilizing flying or rolling submissions altogether in the case of some posts.

Can relate to both of you guys. I've had many injuries in combat sports over the years (broken nose x 5, incidental head butt/elbow/shin to the dome, subs accidentally held a little too long) but I'm with @Kforcer that "malice aforethought" is probably the deciding factor for me. I've never intentionally injured anyone in training or competition and can probably say the same for MOST folks I've trained with. When you flip the competition mode switch, shit happens heat of the moment but you're entrusting your safety to the other guy (and the ruleset).

Guys who violate that trust are scumbags. It's about principle. The saltiest I've been from a competition slight wasn't even a real injury. Was in a greco roman tourny and my opponent slipped his forearm under my chin and started applying a choke (illegal). I remember looking up at the ref like WTF and then went unconscious. Was woken up by the sound of the whistle and me being pinned. When I realized what happened, I asked the other guy if he realized I'd gone out and he was like, "well, I felt you go limp but the ref didn't say anything so I pinned you and it sounds like you woke up." No apology, no nothing. What. The. Fuck. I wanted to punch him in the face but I took the L like a man and didn't raise any more fuss.

The worst injury I suffered was in a Judo dual meet against one of our rival colleges. Opponent was a jacked white belt. Like a cock guy with so much cock, I went for an uchi mata with no set up but he felt like a block of concrete so no dice. I tried to salvage the throw by inverting and dragging him over but got stuck there. Other guy reacts like a proper white belt spaz and jumps into the air, frog splashing me while inverted onto my neck. Snap, crackle pop and I can't move my neck. Ambulance ride to the hospital. Had torn several neck ligaments and wore a neck brace for a few weeks. Never even considered legal action because other guy was competing to his ability and I had violated rule #1 when rolling with a white belt spaz: protect yourself at all times.

Only time I've considered legal action was at my BJJ gym. Head instructor is a thug and a douchebag. BB almost 20 years. Rarely comes in but he's a known hothead and is bad when he has a competition or fight coming up. 99.9% sure he's on gear. He insists on students gargling his nuts and is particularly hard on students up for purple or higher. He's probably come in 10-15 times in the 5+ years I've been training at one of his BB's gyms (main coach is a great guy and a friend). I've rolled with the head instructor probably 4-5 times and he's injured me 3 times. First time he cranked a kimura a full second after I tapped and hyperextended my shoulder. Last year when I was up for purple, he called me out in front of the class for not properly gargling his nuts when he walked in. I apologized but wasn't sure what else he wanted me to do. When it's time to roll, he calls me out and says let's roll. OK. We start and he immediately cross-faces the shit out of me, cutting the inside of my cheek through my mouthguard. WTF. OK restart. He takes my back and when I defend the choke, he moves his forearm to the bridge of my nose and cranks super hard, breaking my nose. I yell and he stops. At this point I am confused and seriously pissed. I walk off the mat and go over to talk to my coach. Head instructor follows me and is berating me with "You have no respect. You need to learn respect. I don't like you." For context, this guy is a pro MMA fighter who has fought in the UFC who was roid raging on me, a late 40's suburban dad with young kids and a desk job who trains BJJ 3 x week and was a blue belt at the time.

I was and still am seriously pissed about that incident almost a year later. I talked to my main coach in private and he apologized on behalf of the head instructor (he shouldn't have to). I told him I was on the fence about staying at the gym and if anything like that ever happens again, I'm calling the police and pressing assault charges. Also told him I will never roll with the head instructor again because I don't trust him with my safety. He said he understands and supports that decision. My main coach and everyone else at my gym are great dudes and I'd hate to leave that training environment. But the head coach is a loose cannon and one of his other BBs (super good dude) just left the gym because he couldn't deal with his shit anymore. 99% of my training has been great and I wouldn't trade it for anything but combat sports and BJJ in particular has some thugs who I'd be happy to see taken out of circulation.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Can relate to both of you guys. I've had many injuries in combat sports over the years (broken nose x 5, incidental head butt/elbow/shin to the dome, subs accidentally held a little too long) but I'm with @Kforcer that "malice aforethought" is probably the deciding factor for me. I've never intentionally injured anyone in training or competition and can probably say the same for MOST folks I've trained with. When you flip the competition mode switch, shit happens heat of the moment but you're entrusting your safety to the other guy (and the ruleset).

Guys who violate that trust are scumbags. It's about principle. The saltiest I've been from a competition slight wasn't even a real injury. Was in a greco roman tourny and my opponent slipped his forearm under my chin and started applying a choke (illegal). I remember looking up at the ref like WTF and then went unconscious. Was woken up by the sound of the whistle and me being pinned. When I realized what happened, I asked the other guy if he realized I'd gone out and he was like, "well, I felt you go limp but the ref didn't say anything so I pinned you and it sounds like you woke up." No apology, no nothing. What. The. Fuck. I wanted to punch him in the face but I took the L like a man and didn't raise any more fuss.

The worst injury I suffered was in a Judo dual meet against one of our rival colleges. Opponent was a jacked white belt. Like a cock guy with so much cock, I went for an uchi mata with no set up but he felt like a block of concrete so no dice. I tried to salvage the throw by inverting and dragging him over but got stuck there. Other guy reacts like a proper white belt spaz and jumps into the air, frog splashing me while inverted onto my neck. Snap, crackle pop and I can't move my neck. Ambulance ride to the hospital. Had torn several neck ligaments and wore a neck brace for a few weeks. Never even considered legal action because other guy was competing to his ability and I had violated rule #1 when rolling with a white belt spaz: protect yourself at all times.

Only time I've considered legal action was at my BJJ gym. Head instructor is a thug and a douchebag. BB almost 20 years. Rarely comes in but he's a known hothead and is bad when he has a competition or fight coming up. 99.9% sure he's on gear. He insists on students gargling his nuts and is particularly hard on students up for purple or higher. He's probably come in 10-15 times in the 5+ years I've been training at one of his BB's gyms (main coach is a great guy and a friend). I've rolled with the head instructor probably 4-5 times and he's injured me 3 times. First time he cranked a kimura a full second after I tapped and hyperextended my shoulder. Last year when I was up for purple, he called me out in front of the class for not properly gargling his nuts when he walked in. I apologized but wasn't sure what else he wanted me to do. When it's time to roll, he calls me out and says let's roll. OK. We start and he immediately cross-faces the shit out of me, cutting the inside of my cheek through my mouthguard. WTF. OK restart. He takes my back and when I defend the choke, he moves his forearm to the bridge of my nose and cranks super hard, breaking my nose. I yell and he stops. At this point I am confused and seriously pissed. I walk off the mat and go over to talk to my coach. Head instructor follows me and is berating me with "You have no respect. You need to learn respect. I don't like you." For context, this guy is a pro MMA fighter who has fought in the UFC who was roid raging on me, a late 40's suburban dad with young kids and a desk job who trains BJJ 3 x week and was a blue belt at the time.

I was and still am seriously pissed about that incident almost a year later. I talked to my main coach in private and he apologized on behalf of the head instructor (he shouldn't have to). I told him I was on the fence about staying at the gym and if anything like that ever happens again, I'm calling the police and pressing assault charges. Also told him I will never roll with the head instructor again because I don't trust him with my safety. He said he understands and supports that decision. My main coach and everyone else at my gym are great dudes and I'd hate to leave that training environment. But the head coach is a loose cannon and one of his other BBs just left him because he couldn't deal with his shit anymore. 99% of my training has been great and I wouldn't trade it for anything but combat sports and BJJ in particular has some thugs who I'd be happy to see taken out of circulation.

Damn that dude sounds like a idiot. I seriously wonder who he is now.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Damn that dude sounds like a idiot. I seriously wonder who he is now.

Not a big name and you probably wouldn't recognize him, although you'd probably know some of the guys he's trained with. I'd hate for anything negative to come back to my main coach (who is a BB under him) or his gym, because he's a great guy who sets a positive training environment and I wish him only the best. I think there's something about MMA and its periphery that attracts both the worst and the best of people. The other UFC guy associated with my gym (former top 5) is one of the most humble unassuming dudes I've ever met. I couldn't imagine him harming a fly outside of the cage and he's so respectful and considerate rolling with random scrubs like me, it's ridiculous.

 

[Kforcer]

Not a big name and you probably wouldn't recognize him, although you'd probably know some of the guys he's trained with. I'd hate for anything negative to come back to my main coach (who is a BB under him) or his gym, because he's a great guy who sets a positive training environment and I wish him only the best. I think there's something about MMA and its periphery that attracts both the worst and the best of people. The other UFC guy associated with my gym (former top 5) is one of the most humble unassuming dudes I've ever met. I couldn't imagine him harming a fly outside of the cage and he's so respectful and considerate rolling with random scrubs like me, it's ridiculous.

Yeah, I think any activity that can be viewed as involving an assertion of dominance has a strong possibility of attracting at least some share of jerks.

 

[Kforcer]

Damn that dude sounds like a idiot. I seriously wonder who he is now.

Yeah and idiot and kind of a psychopath. He reminds me of a local dude whose claim to fame is being Rashad Evans' first coach. That guy's gyms keep closing down due to his inability to curb his bloodlust. He probably would have followed Rashad into the UFC--Rashad was loyal to him--but he beat up a prostitute and ended up in prison during Rashad's TUF run.