Luke Barnatt on Tor

[fight4ippon]

Luke mentioned something about how European mma fighters are very good and Americans over look that and thats why tor is unassuming, he's just a Swedish guy to the other team.


-Gustaffson is on his way to the title and just defeated a widely followed fightere (Swedish just like tor)

-at least on these forums tons of people idolize Bas Rutten

-There is controversy but also was a huge following for fedor

-Everybody loves vovchanchyn

-There are tons of Cro cop followers here

What the hell is he talking about Americans don't like/appreciate Euro fighters?

 

[Romano338]

Just your first example: Gustafsson.
I'm pretty sure he'd already have a title shot if he was american or brazilian.
Sonnen is next, Machida then. Come on, Gustafsson is way more interesting and legitimate to see against Jones than these guys.

And then, you can name 5 example.
So European MMA is 5 fighters?
And he didn't say US don't like European fighters at all, he said people are a bit overlooking them and don't considerate them as much as they should.

 

[fight4ippon]

Just your first example: Gustafsson.
I'm pretty sure he'd already have a title shot if he was american or brazilian.

Yeh you got a point there. I think Gus is the only one to take jones

"So European MMA is 5 fighters?"

no but those are some legends like if u listed chuck liddel, AS, cotoure, mir its just a short list of Euro dudes that won over american crowds.

 

[Romano338]

Yeah I get you, but I think US sometimes don't give enough credit.
They don't know them, which is very understandable, so it's not like a brazilian or an american which they know way more

 

[fight4ippon]

yah I wanted to see Sakara rise the ranks I like his boxing style. I know how the dutch have deadly kickboxing. I guess I'm not 'typical'. We're gonna see Gus be the champ I'm sure of it tho hopefully this will increase attention on european athletes. This is the new world sport

 

[Mackie***]

How do you explain Hardy getting a pop at GSP then?

 

[Romano338]

How do you explain Hardy getting a pop at GSP then?

Again, it seems like you don't read and understand what I and Barnatt are saying
We don't say US hate and don't know AT ALL the Europeans.
We say that sometimes, they don't give them enough credit (and I don't say US don't them credit at all).
But again, I think (hope) it's only because you don't know them well, which is 100% understandable as they live, train and fight thousand miles away.

It's not a critic.

And again, I'm sure 100% that if Gustafsson was brazilian or american, he would already have had a title shot. But he probably don't sell enough compare to a Sonnen or Machida

 

[Mackie***]

Again, it seems like you can read and understand what I and Barnatt are saying...
We don't say US hate and don't know AT ALL the Europeans.
We say that sometimes, they don't give them enough credit (and I don't say US don't them credit at all).
But again, I think (hope) it's only because you don't know them well, which is 100% understandable as they live, train and fight thousand miles away.

It's not a critic.

And again, I'm sure 100% that if Gustafsson was brazilian or american, he would already have had a title shot. But he probably don't sell enough compare to a Sonnen or Machida

If Hardy was American or Brazilian he probably wouldn't have got the title shot.

 

[Romano338]

Yeah, but I agree with you on Hardy.
He's here only because he's exciting. He's one of the guys I would have cut.
But UFC can't cut him, he's important on the UK market (like a Diabate is hard to cut because he could be important on the French market)

Again (and again and again) it's not astrict and definitive say. There are some examples going in a sense, others going in the other way

 

[gspdiaz209]

As there are more and more opportunities, more fighters will train, and European fighters will get better with time. Or maybe they need to learn the American way and use TRT, PEDs during their training in the off season. (shhhh)

Also, can't wait till UFC hits China. It's more likely going to be like the UK when it started, the fighters might be mediocre at first, because MMA is also new. Not a lot of good wrestling in China, but lots of standup fighting. Kids strive to become businessman or scientists over there as competition is high with a large population, but with introduction of UFC as a window of opportunity for martial artists to make a living will jump start the performance in coming years.

 

[Goreds1994]

If Hardy was American or Brazilian he probably wouldn't have got the title shot.

And he wouldn't still be in the UFC.

 

[Just Jared]

He's not talking about proven UFC fighters.

How many times have you heard people dismiss European MMA fighters on here based on an assumed lack of grappling ability or the thought that guys from places like Sweden are only fighting weak competition? I'm pretty sure that's all he was getting at.

 

[orangecuse]

The funny thing is there are more example like this. A guy who proved he's one of the very best fighters in his region in Europe. Or proven head and shoulders above just about everyone in Europe...Getting owned by some American who probably isn't even the best prospect in his own state.

A few years ago Paul Mcvegh came to TUF the best BW in UK/Europe. An unheralded FLW Gaudinot with way, way less experience beat him up.

 

[Selukrid612]

I think European fighters are often overrated if anything. And I'm not saying that to diss European fighters, but it seems like a lot of times new European fighters get more hype than they deserve and don't live up to expectations. And Tor is a great example, I'd say he failed to live up to expectations.

 

[Just Jared]

A few years ago Paul Mcvegh came to TUF the best BW in UK/Europe. An unheralded FLW Gaudinot with way, way less experience beat him up.

I think Gaudinot was actually ranked in Sherdog's top 10 at the time, for whatever that's worth.

 

[orangecuse]

I think Gaudinot was actually ranked in Sherdog's top 10 at the time, for whatever that's worth.

Yeah possibly at FLW. But the division was new and I believe he was like 5-1 at the time. Unheralded might not be the right word for him since he did have some hype.

But the larger point still stands. Heck solid mid-tier journeyman like Jesse Taylor, Jorge Santiago, Tom Speer, Matt Horwhich. These guys fly around the world, often on short notice fighting the best international fighters for local belts, etc. Always on the intl fighters home territory and those journeymen do really good. Some have been screwed over(Horwhich-Watson and others). Yes there are losses there every now and then but these guys aren't anywhere near the cream of the crop. Guys like Taylor/Speer even Horwhich it seems sometimes just show up looking like they don't care and haven't trained much.

 

[Ughugh]

The funny thing is there are more example like this. A guy who proved he's one of the very best fighters in his region in Europe. Or proven head and shoulders above just about everyone in Europe...Getting owned by some American who probably isn't even the best prospect in his own state.

A few years ago Paul Mcvegh came to TUF the best BW in UK/Europe. An unheralded FLW Gaudinot with way, way less experience beat him up.

Rankings in Europe means shit compared to a talent analysis in individual fighters. Fact is there are so many small orgs and no clear focal points so ranking a fighter would be kind of like scrapping the UFC and Bellator in the US and attempting to rank the best guys based on a bunch of scattered local shows where each fighter has one or two fights with grainy piss poor video quality on Youtube. In Sweden alone there are a couple of guys who could beat Tor but are ranked lower and this considering that the MMA scene of the whole country is smaller than that of San Diego's.

There's also a definite gap between what is essentially a bunch of commited hobbyists (in most cases) and guys that are already trained professionals or trains with professionals at a pro gym in a pro setting. TS mentioned Gustafsson but when he came into the UFC he was doing MMA part time and basically saw it as something "fun to do" until Davis beat his ass and gave him the taste of defeat. Tor is similarly very much an talented fighter and a beast but it's still a comparatively raw talent and it doesn't seem like he cares all that much. Being a gym hero with guys like Gustafsson, Manuwa and others doesn't close that gap and like most euro fighters he needs to go through a trial by fire when transitioning to full pro. Moving from the arctic circle to Stockholm and train full time with Allstars would be a good start.

The third point is that Tor is really not a bad fighter. It seemed like he was playing it safe and having another day at the office but Josh wanted differently and caught him by surprise. If he would've survived then maybe it had woken it up but nevermind, the point is he's fought much better competition and match sparrs with much tougher guys but motivation beats class. Tor clocked in to snatch a comfortable win and Josh clocked in to beat his ass. The latter won with a combination of luck and skill. Same thing happened to Bubba so there you go... shit happens.

 

[Romano338]

But Gustafsson was still a guy from Europe training part time who is today one of the top LHW in the world.

 

[Al_W]

I think European fighters are often overrated if anything. And I'm not saying that to diss European fighters, but it seems like a lot of times new European fighters get more hype than they deserve and don't live up to expectations. And Tor is a great example, I'd say he failed to live up to expectations.

I'm a Brit and I agree with that.

Re: Tor, I think Samman is better than people give him credit for. It's not necessarily a weakness in Tor cause he lost. Samman could well get to the final. Unless they spot the gyno.

 

[LarsP]

European MMA is currently where MMA in the Americas (US/Brazil) was 5-10 years ago. It's banned in alot of countries and many of the top martial artists are making very good money on doing martial arts on the international stage (wrestling, kickboxing etc.).

Give it time to mature and the quality will improve.