Liver shot efficiency...

[jimmyfingers]

I was wondering why is it that when some fighters land it (punch), their opponent goes down immediately while others can take a pounding on the same spot over and over without showing any sign of pain? Is it because of poor aim or just not hitting the right spot?

Most of Bas's kicks were pretty much one-shot and the other guy goes down immediately... where as the punch seem a bit harder to land on the exact spot / force applied in order to drop someone.

I don't train MMA and have fortunately never been punched nor kicked in the liver to the point where I drop...but I'm very curious about this shot (both punch and kicks) because it seem like a quick way to put someone down (and making sure they stay downed for awhile) before they have a chance to regroup or what not. Any experienced practitioners out there who can shed some light on this, and if there is indeed a 'right way' to hit the liver - much appreciated!

 

[fluffball]

Everyone is different...

Why can you hit Mark Hunt in the head with a baseball bat and he doesn't care? Different punchers, different punchees.

 

[jimmyfingers]

Lol good point but most people are not Mark Hunt and I'm assuming the average Joe will likely go down with a good shot to the liver, right?

 

[fluffball]

Lol good point but most people are not Mark Hunt and I'm assuming the average Joe will likely go down with a good shot to the liver, right?

No. You get hit a hundred times a class in the liver. It hurts and can be debilitating, but you're not going to consistently TKO people with it. And most strikers condition their body extremely heavily, something you can't do with the head.

 

[cakemuncher]

You need to substantially shock someone's liver, but how to do it exactly is not something that is deterministic (in the sense of pinpointing and executing so that it works every single time).

The same as punching someone on the jaw may or may not knock them out.

 

[j123]

I think (the ones who get hit and don't drop) they aren't hit in the sweet spot. It could be mostly ribs taking the weight.

 

[jimmyfingers]

Understood.

Unless uber hard accurate shot aimed below the rib cage, chances of retaliation @ roughly 80%

 

[ssullivan80]

No. You get hit a hundred times a class in the liver. It hurts and can be debilitating, but you're not going to consistently TKO people with it. And most strikers condition their body extremely heavily, something you can't do with the head.

You may get hit 100 times in the body, and you can "condition" your body to absorb shots. But ya obviously haven't been cracked solid in the liver if you think you can "condition" yourself to absord it. Ya cant! A clean liver shot, regardless of your conditioning, is IMO the most painful shot you can possibly take. It'll actually paralyze you momentarily (legs will lock up), followed by a pain i'd liken to someone twisting a screwdriver around inside you. Think of the liver as the bodies version of the chin, you get caught clean with a solid shot in either it's likely the last shot you'll take that day.......... and you won't soon forget it. Just like taking a shot in the chin creates a responsive physical reaction, throws off your equilibrium (ya get rocked). Getting hit in the liver also creates a physical reaction, by releasing toxins into the body (Imagine the liver being a balloon filled with Napalm, that get's popped inside you), it's not something you can condition yourself for or against.

 

[fluffball]

You can't condition the liver but you can condition the abs. Literally every single kicking style I've ever trained in has had variations on the drill where you put your hands on your head and let someone kick you in the liver. I've eaten horrendous back kicks to the liver and not been paralyzed.

There is a reason you almost never see body shot KOs in the UFC. I can think of like 3 off the top of my head out of thousands of fights I've seen. I feel like you're just stating the obvious, that yes you can be TKOd by a body shot, but so what? I can TKO someone with a leg kick as well. In fact I think I could more consistently TKO a non-leg kick style fighter with leg kicks than I could a random Joe with a back kick to the liver. They both hurt like hell if you're just going to stand there and eat it.

Edit: Also squirting toxins out of the is complete malarky, the liver is not a bag sucking toxins out of you like a vacuum, this is happening at a cellular level. I dare you to find any legit medical source that confirms that and I'll delete my account. The reason it hurts is because all your organs have a bunch of nerves in them.

 

[fluffball]

Understood.

Unless uber hard accurate shot aimed below the rib cage, chances of retaliation @ roughly 80%

I think you've got that backwards a bit. Uber hard shot to liver, chance of retaliation @ ~80%. Random shot to the liver area, chance of retaliation @ ~100%

 

[BennyST]

You may get hit 100 times in the body, and you can "condition" your body to absorb shots. But ya obviously haven't been cracked solid in the liver if you think you can "condition" yourself to absord it. Ya cant! A clean liver shot, regardless of your conditioning, is IMO the most painful shot you can possibly take. It'll actually paralyze you momentarily (legs will lock up), followed by a pain i'd liken to someone twisting a screwdriver around inside you. Think of the liver as the bodies version of the chin, you get caught clean with a solid shot in either it's likely the last shot you'll take that day.......... and you won't soon forget it. Just like taking a shot in the chin creates a responsive physical reaction, throws off your equilibrium (ya get rocked). Getting hit in the liver also creates a physical reaction, by releasing toxins into the body (Imagine the liver being a balloon filled with Napalm, that get's popped inside you), it's not something you can condition yourself for or against.

So true. You can't condition the liver. There's just a sweet spot, which is the point where the liver is closest to the skin, that is hard to find, but man, when you find it the shot doesn't even need to be hard.

I remember the only time I wanted to stop training was when I started getting hurt to the body badly quite often. In hindsight I realise it was because I was partying a lot at that stage of my life...lots of drinking. I assume maybe my liver was slightly enlarged and not functioning that great and so even shots that would not have hurt much previously were really having a nasty effect on me. It was awful.

But no matter what you do, it's just something you can't condition against. When you get hit on that spot, it's like no other type of physical hurt you can get anywhere else. Man, so painful. I can still remember with amazing clarity the pain and reaction of taking a hard shot to that sweet spot, and yet I can't remember the head shots that caught me really flush at all. They just don't have the same effect at all and it's definitely something you will feel for a long time after. Still gives me the heebie jeebies thinking about it.

 

[Higus]

Edit: Also squirting toxins out of the is complete malarky, the liver is not a bag sucking toxins out of you like a vacuum, this is happening at a cellular level. I dare you to find any legit medical source that confirms that and I'll delete my account. The reason it hurts is because all your organs have a bunch of nerves in them.

Yeah, the toxins theory gets thrown around every now and then. A strong body shot basically causes a systemic failure in the cardiovascular system: your body reacts to the blow by rapidly dropping blood pressure. Imagine you are running a full sprint, then your heart rate suddenly drops by 50%...you'd probably pass out!

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/fight-doctor---the-liver-kick

The capsule around the liver has a lot of nerve fibers. It’s directly linked to the autonomic nervous system. When there’s a sudden blow, there are dynamic pressure changes in the actual organ itself, and that stretching of the organ – if you compress one side it stretches on the other because it’s pliable – causes these nerves signals that go directly into the autonomic nervous system and can cause a complex cascade of events. It's something you can’t control mentally, and it causes a sudden dilation of all your blood vessels everywhere except for the brain. At the same time, your heart rate decreases. Normally, to maintain blood pressure, if your blood vessels dilate, your heart beats faster to maintain the pressure in the cardiovascular system, but if you dilate the blood vessels and drop the heart rate, the blood pressure suddenly drops dramatically. Essentially that’s what’s happening with the blow to the liver: The fighter takes a shot, you get this nerve signal going into the autonomic nervous system, your blood vessels dilate, the heart rate decreases, the blood pressure suddenly drops, and the athlete collapses. You can’t control it. You’re down.

Kind of amazing. What's interesting to note is that any sufficient blow to an internal organ could cause the same response, but the liver is so large and in a position where it's barely protected by the ribs and muscel that it makes it an easier target.

 

[fluffball]

Kind of amazing. What's interesting to note is that any sufficient blow to an internal organ could cause the same response, but the liver is so large and in a position where it's barely protected by the ribs and muscel that it makes it an easier target.

It's why people talking about the actual organs and tissues are a huge pet peeve for me (the whole toxins from the liver or kidney shots, and other ridiculous bro-science.) It's the western equivalent of 'chi' nonsense.

Nearly every major target in MA is a big blob of nerves, leg kicks, solar plexus, inside of arm, liver, and so on. News flash: getting hammered in your major nerve branches hurts.

 

[jimmyfingers]

Thanks so much for all the replies guys. After reading all the posts, think I have a decent grasp of the idea behind it....however as a non-practitioner, practical usage is another story. I can keep a fairly calm head during throw downs, despite adrenalin rush and all, and also I'm bottom heavy - it's much easier for me to gain muscles on legs than the upper body. The liver shot won't be a first option but will be in the back of my mind should altercations ever happen in the future and if the scenario is right, wham. My lower kick form is pretty legit I watch a lot of thai kick sessions n' all with decent heavy bag practice lol. Will def put my body momentum into it if I ever land that kick -

 

[foogly117]

I got liver shotted today and it sucked.

 

[j123]

Thanks so much for all the replies guys. After reading all the posts, think I have a decent grasp of the idea behind it....however as a non-practitioner, practical usage is another story. I can keep a fairly calm head during throw downs, despite adrenalin rush and all, and also I'm bottom heavy - it's much easier for me to gain muscles on legs than the upper body. The liver shot won't be a first option but will be in the back of my mind should altercations ever happen in the future and if the scenario is right, wham. My lower kick form is pretty legit I watch a lot of thai kick sessions n' all with decent heavy bag practice lol. Will def put my body momentum into it if I ever land that kick -

Takedown -> soccer liver kick = sounds right up your alley

 

[fluffball]

You have to be careful about kicking people on the ground, I believe that's a felony (?), I know it's assault with a deadly weapon where I live (shod foot). I get the feeling the OP is talking about drunken brawls more than self defense. In self defense, liver shot really isn't an option except as a last resort, you'd be better off with a thumb in their eye or kicking their nuts or etc. Liver shot is most likely to just piss people off.

 

[Gregolian]

The one guy I can remember watching that always seemed to manage to at LEAST get some sort of "fuck that hurt" reaction from a liver shot was Ward.


Gatti being a very notable exception

 

[wilddeuces]

Clean puching. Power. These count. There's definitely something to be said for the old expression: "It's the punch you don't see coming that hurts the most" and this applies to body punching too. Your body can't brace for something that it doesn't anticipate.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

effectiveness*