Lightning in a bottle vs all-time greatness

[Rubios]

I think the UFC "community", and not just this forum, evaluate achievements in a very different way than in any other sport, including other combat sports.
It’s a combination of being very prisoner of the moment and MMA math.
To each its own, ofc, but IMHO this current influences how fighters approach their careers, and it hurts us as fans.

I’ll give a very clear example:
If Topuria himself could choose the best possible scenario for his career, he’d fight two more times and retire. I’m Spanish, and I can assure you he’s been saying this up and down long before his personal issues. In fact, if we’re dreaming, his ideal would have been to challenge Islam @155, win, retire.

Every fighter can do whatever they want with their career. And Ilia’s has been/would have been/will be a GREAT career. The problem is that a very large percentage of fans would consider that enough to put him in a historical top 5.
Because he knocked out this guy who beat that other guy, and that other guy who beat the one over there… conclusion: he’s the best of them all.
And I don’t believe things work like that. There’s a huge distance between being the potential favorite in a fight and actually winning that fight. And doing it many times.

And it annoys me because Ilia just turned 29, and he has everything it takes to be an absolute, huge legend if people didn’t buy into the idea that 4 title fight wins are enough to retire on top.
“This is MMA”. Kamaru looked untouchable and was on his way to matching AS with 16 straight wins until he eats a head kick with less than a minute left. And then he loses the rematch. Adesanya wins the belt back by knocking out Pereira, and in his next fight Strickland completely shuts him down.

If Topuria’s future really were exactly as HE HIMSELF would plan it, I couldn’t place him among the top 3 FWs or LWs. And yes, he’s a double champ. But there are another 10. Meanwhile, I could put Pereira (who came to the UFC at 34) as a top 3 LHW.
Don’t even get me started on Khamzat.

Champions have to fight more, win -and lose, and get revenge- more fights to earn status. We can’t just take it for granted.
Greatness needs to be sustained in order to become greatness.

 

[blunttruth]

The all time greats give rematches to top competitors, keep fighting until they lose, and then come back from defeats to win again.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

Agree with everything.

Spoiler: Also

 

[RockyLockridge]

Cejudo tried this but all it did was ruin what was a pretty great run, Had cejudo decided to defend the bw title 2 or 3 more times and maybe the flyweight title 1 or 2 more times, His standing as a fighter would be completely different

 

[Mr.Maelstrom]

The Jon-Tom debate in a nutshell, ironically.

100% agreed

 

[Kwic]

I think the UFC "community", and not just this forum, evaluate achievements in a very different way than in any other sport, including other combat sports.
It’s a combination of being very prisoner of the moment and MMA math.
To each its own, ofc, but IMHO this current influences how fighters approach their careers, and it hurts us as fans.

I’ll give a very clear example:
If Topuria himself could choose the best possible scenario for his career, he’d fight two more times and retire. I’m Spanish, and I can assure you he’s been saying this up and down long before his personal issues. In fact, if we’re dreaming, his ideal would have been to challenge Islam @155, win, retire.

Every fighter can do whatever they want with their career. And Ilia’s has been/would have been/will be a GREAT career. The problem is that a very large percentage of fans would consider that enough to put him in a historical top 5.
Because he knocked out this guy who beat that other guy, and that other guy who beat the one over there… conclusion: he’s the best of them all.
And I don’t believe things work like that. There’s a huge distance between being the potential favorite in a fight and actually winning that fight. And doing it many times.

And it annoys me because Ilia just turned 29, and he has everything it takes to be an absolute, huge legend if people didn’t buy into the idea that 4 title fight wins are enough to retire on top.
“This is MMA”. Kamaru looked untouchable and was on his way to matching AS with 16 straight wins until he eats a head kick with less than a minute left. And then he loses the rematch. Adesanya wins the belt back by knocking out Pereira, and in his next fight Strickland completely shuts him down.

If Topuria’s future really were exactly as HE HIMSELF would plan it, I couldn’t place him among the top 3 FWs or LWs. And yes, he’s a double champ. But there are another 10. Meanwhile, I could put Pereira (who came to the UFC at 34) as a top 3 LHW.
Don’t even get me started on Khamzat.

Champions have to fight more, win -and lose, and get revenge- more fights to earn status. We can’t just take it for granted.
Greatness needs to be sustained in order to become greatness.

Great points brother.

 

[bng]

not gonna read anything and will suggest others not to
follow the next principle instead: whoever wins is the GOAT and who just lost is a bum/was never good
simple

 

[Brigfa2]

I think the UFC "community", and not just this forum, evaluate achievements in a very different way than in any other sport, including other combat sports.
It’s a combination of being very prisoner of the moment and MMA math.
To each its own, ofc, but IMHO this current influences how fighters approach their careers, and it hurts us as fans.

I’ll give a very clear example:
If Topuria himself could choose the best possible scenario for his career, he’d fight two more times and retire. I’m Spanish, and I can assure you he’s been saying this up and down long before his personal issues. In fact, if we’re dreaming, his ideal would have been to challenge Islam @155, win, retire.

Every fighter can do whatever they want with their career. And Ilia’s has been/would have been/will be a GREAT career. The problem is that a very large percentage of fans would consider that enough to put him in a historical top 5.
Because he knocked out this guy who beat that other guy, and that other guy who beat the one over there… conclusion: he’s the best of them all.
And I don’t believe things work like that. There’s a huge distance between being the potential favorite in a fight and actually winning that fight. And doing it many times.

And it annoys me because Ilia just turned 29, and he has everything it takes to be an absolute, huge legend if people didn’t buy into the idea that 4 title fight wins are enough to retire on top.
“This is MMA”. Kamaru looked untouchable and was on his way to matching AS with 16 straight wins until he eats a head kick with less than a minute left. And then he loses the rematch. Adesanya wins the belt back by knocking out Pereira, and in his next fight Strickland completely shuts him down.

If Topuria’s future really were exactly as HE HIMSELF would plan it, I couldn’t place him among the top 3 FWs or LWs. And yes, he’s a double champ. But there are another 10. Meanwhile, I could put Pereira (who came to the UFC at 34) as a top 3 LHW.
Don’t even get me started on Khamzat.

Champions have to fight more, win -and lose, and get revenge- more fights to earn status. We can’t just take it for granted.
Greatness needs to be sustained in order to become greatness.

2x Masvidal 2x Covington Osman has the most overrated resume in UFC history

 

[Dr. Rose]

I agree with everything but Alex top 3. I can see how one can get there, but he is probably 5 or 6 for me.
1. JBJ
2. DC
3. Wandy
4. Tito
5. Shogun

With a few more wins from Alex, this will probably change

 

[jeff7b9]

GOAT vs GAOT

Greatest of all time - you need achievements, longevity, resume

Greatest at one time - you were at one time a star that shined brighter than the rest


Both are great but if you wanna be a GOAT you gotta put in the work.
I ain't got anything against a fighter that gets in, wins belts: gets money and leaves the game intact. Good for them

 

[Clark Rogers]

I get pretty tired of the "this guy's single title win and defense were modern, modern is harder, so his 15 month reign means more than the guy with 15 defenses over a decade" type shit.

I'll concede that might make someone the greatest of that year, but "all time" is cumulative.

 

[RockyLockridge]

2x Masvidal 2x Covington Osman has the most overrated resume in UFC history

I agree, I lol when people put him up next to georges. Even woodleys defenses agaisnt Wonderboy and till look better than those. It's not like colby or masvidal have beaten wonderboy. I guess burns has but that was when wonderboy was on his way out

 

[Rubios]

I agree, I lol when people put him up next to georges. Even woodleys defenses agaisnt Wonderboy and till look better than those. It's not like colby or masvidal have beaten wonderboy. I guess burns has but that was when wonderboy was on his way out

I agree. Not his fault, though, but the matchmaking during his run was... debatable. My point is that Kamaru seemed unstoppable until he didn't.

A better explanation: following some people's POV, Volk's career would've been better if he retired after Islam #1. Not in my book.
Defeats take a toll, but wins matter much more.

 

[RockyLockridge]

I agree. Not his fault, though, but the matchmaking during his run was... debatable. My point is that Kamaru seemed unstoppable until he didn't.

A better explanation: following some people's POV, Volk's career would've been better if he retired after Islam #1. Not in my book.
Defeats take a toll, but wins matter much more.

He was unstoppable but his competition was poor. Leon Edwards isn't even good either and he managed to lose to him twice. I never looked at him as anything special. 100% think Usman could have lost to Rory McDonald, Johnny Hendricks or Robbie Lawler