Leg locks as a counter to back taking on kesa.

[Human Bass]

So Im watching Gokor leg locks encyclopedia, and he shows those incredbly simple leg locks when the bottom guy hooks your outside leg.

They look really easy and an effectve bait, has anyone here tried any of those? He says the both are straight ankle locks, so white belt legal.

 

[ThePainFactory]

Gokor has some of the most beautify and intricate leg attacks I have ever seen. Often his attacks get dismissed because he makes them seem simple. He has great control of pressure and angle.

I personally don't use those attacks (not that they don't work) they just don't fit my style.


Dan trains with Gokor so he my be able to better explain these and there usefulness.

 

[Gfreak]

My coach has caught me in things similar to this before. But one of them was literally the opposite of that, instead of pulling the foot to the inside for the toe hold, he traps the leg with his outside leg up by my toes on the inside. And torques it outside for a heel hook.

 

[lechien]

Gokor has some of the most beautify and intricate leg attacks I have ever seen. Often his attacks get dismissed because he makes them seem simple. He has great control of pressure and angle.

I personally don't use those attacks (not that they don't work) they just don't fit my style.


Dan trains with Gokor so he my be able to better explain these and there usefulness.

interesting because hooking the leg in one way i was taught on how to escape the kesa.

 

[ThePainFactory]

interesting because hooking the leg in one way i was taught on how to escape the kesa.

I learned the same escape. I still do the escape but I am watchful of the foot lock. The way I used the escape has changed a bit from how I was first shown. I use my hand to open the hip and keep my toes pointed up. I try to not loss control of their hips and work to get under them as quick as possible.

At 8:16 in the video
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[nefti]

interesting because hooking the leg in one way i was taught on how to escape the kesa.

well let's be honest, every escape opens you for a submission or a transition. That being said, the guy on the bottom isn't driving in to the guy on top, i think that that would help prevent the leglock.

 

[Human Bass]

Thanks Pain Factory for making a thread of mine interesting!

 

[Jonas g33k]

Also in Rolled Up #1 with explanation from Gokor himself. "Rollin', rollin', rollin'..."

At 6:47 in the video
[YT]F_IMYK0kS5M[/YT]

 

[Kingbedlam]

Nasty stuff.

Is it true that leg locks are more dangerous than arm locks because its easier to damage the knee than the elbow?

 

[lechien]

Nasty stuff.

Is it true that leg locks are more dangerous than arm locks because its easier to damage the knee than the elbow?

I think it is a myth.

straight knee bar, toe hold (done properly), straight ankle lock are pretty safe.

But the problem is if you get injured, you have to hop around on a injured leg and that really sucks.

While with an injured arm, you still have mobility.

If leg locks are train from day one in the proper manner, teach the escapes, proper way of doing them and give people time to tap.

I think they are as dangerous as an armbar.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Nasty stuff.

Is it true that leg locks are more dangerous than arm locks because its easier to damage the knee than the elbow?

Tough to say. Not all leg locks attack the knee directly, and not all arm locks attack the elbow directly.

I don't know about "more dangerous" as a category, but I would say the injury risk is higher with knees versus elbows. I've injured both my knees and elbows (in that they popped while grappling from either a submission or a sudden movement). My elbows are fine today. My knees are not. Take that for what it's worth.

By the way I think leg locks should be taught and trained at all levels.

 

[Calibur]

Nasty stuff.

Is it true that leg locks are more dangerous than arm locks because its easier to damage the knee than the elbow?

that's a loaded question.

It's harder to damage a leg with a knee bar than it is to damage an arm with an armbar.

The real issue is that knees aren't really made to tolerate hyperotation. Heel hooks and appropriately done toe holds can mess the knees up badly without much pressure. Those can injuries require a while to recover from. A lot of times you can be fine after a day, sometimes you might need to see a doc, it depends.

The taboo in leg locks IMO comes from 2 main things.

A) An injury to a leg is MUCH more disruptive to daily life than an injury to your arm.
B) A lot of people (stupidly ) look at leg attacks as a short cut to guard passing.

 

[Kingbedlam]

that's a loaded question.

It's harder to damage a leg with a knee bar than it is to damage an arm with an armbar.

The real issue is that knees aren't really made to tolerate hyperotation. Heel hooks and appropriately done toe holds can mess the knees up badly without much pressure. Those can injuries require a while to recover from. A lot of times you can be fine after a day, sometimes you might need to see a doc, it depends.

The taboo in leg locks IMO comes from 2 main things.

A) An injury to a leg is MUCH more disruptive to daily life than an injury to your arm.
B) A lot of people (stupidly ) look at leg attacks as a short cut to guard passing.

B is what I was thinking, because I'm looking at ways to pass Guard, and I was considering maybe trying a leg lock to do it. I'm curious, why do you think that's a bad strategy?

<------ Stupid White belt.

 

[Calibur]

B is what I was thinking, because I'm looking at ways to pass Guard, and I was considering maybe trying a leg lock to do it. I'm curious, why do you think that's a bad strategy?

<------ Stupid White belt.

I don't think it's a bad strategy at all! I actually think it's a necessity for serious guard play. It forces your opponent to second guess their feet placement and that disrupts their guard. Properly done leg attacks will (at worst) leave you in a neutral position upon failure. Much more secure than a poorly slapped on triangle choke from the guard.

When I said "short cut" I meant people think it is unsportsmanlike, and I disagree with the sentiment.

You might want to start with straight footlocks. Honestly, so many people these days don't realize that attack is legal at WHITE belt, so you might want to warn them you may go for them before you roll first time.

 

[Zankou]

Outside of a judo tournament (where this is totally illegal), how often do you ever get hit with kesa gatame? It may work, but it's such an uncommon situation in my experience (footlock counter to back hook escape against kesa) that I'm not sure I see much practical point to it.

 

[Calibur]

Outside of a judo tournament (where this is totally illegal), how often do you ever get hit with kesa gatame? It may work, but it's such an uncommon situation in my experience (footlock counter to back hook escape against kesa) that I'm not sure I see much practical point to it.

To be fair recently I've been trying to use Kesa Gatame as much as possible recently just to prove a point.

This footlock is an interesting option but still, I doubt I'd let my opponent get my kesa so misaligned that they can actually get the first hook in.

 

[Balto]

That leg lock works when the guy tries to take your back with one hook as well.

I believe it is tough to hit. However, the few guys who can hit this tend to hit it somewhat reliably.

I only ever rolled with one guy who could hit this, but it was a legitimate threat anytime you tried to take his back. He had a massive waist (like 60 inches probably) which helped a lot. He would trap the leg across his massive belly and use it for leverage as he arched.

 

[Human Bass]

Outside of a judo tournament (where this is totally illegal), how often do you ever get hit with kesa gatame? It may work, but it's such an uncommon situation in my experience (footlock counter to back hook escape against kesa) that I'm not sure I see much practical point to it.

Kesa is fun and a lot of BJJ guys understimate it, so why not? Traditional side control can be safer, but Kesa (at least to me) seems to offer more offense.

 

[Human Bass]

To be fair recently I've been trying to use Kesa Gatame as much as possible recently just to prove a point.

This footlock is an interesting option but still, I doubt I'd let my opponent get my kesa so misaligned that they can actually get the first hook in.

Calibur, how do you like to align your legs? I feel that the inside leg at 12 and the outside at 9 is the best for safe pinning like Sambo Steve shows in his Rolled Up episode.

 

[TheRNC]

I specifically do no teach this "escape" to my students because of the variety of attacks the top guy has from that position.