Lebron better than Bird? (i.e. rate Lebron's current legacy, v4)

[faustian]

Shooting: Bern close and long range; Bird midrange
Penetration: Bern
Post-play: Bird
Ballhandling: Bern
Ball distribution: Bern
Rebounding: Bird
Defense:Bern
Basketball IQ: too close to call
Toughness: Bern
Leadership Ability: Bern
Competition: Bird
Athleticism: Bern


Something about Bern's mental toughness and leadership:

Dwyane Wade was interviewed on local radio last week and he was asked what was the most stressful time of the "Big 3" Heat era. He instantly responded with "Game 6" and the hosts as well as myself automatically assumed he was referring to Game 6 of the 2013 Finals vs SA. He spoke up and said no Game 6 at Boston was by far the most stressful time of his career. He said from the moment they lost Game 5 in Miami, there was a feeling of impending doom heading up to Boston for Game 6 down 2-3. Nothing was comfortable, the stress was crushing. Bern delivered perhaps the biggest game of his career.



But that's just what Bern does. He may be considered passive by low-level analysts, but no one in NBA history scores more in elimination games than Bern.

 

[cincymma79]

bird and bern were different positions so it's harder to do more than post the numbers
http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/larry_bird_vs_lebron_james.htm

steals and blocks are identical
more boards for bird (which to me are about equal to a turnover)
better shooter outside and on the line
lebron 3 points per game more

 

[jrams]

LeBron + his stacked team got straight up beat by the late great Dirk Nowitzki who by all accounts is a poor man's Larry Bird.

 

[RR]

Garnettgif

 

[RabidJesus]

And Bird + his stacked team lost to Magic Johnson who most people compare Bern to.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Bern already has the greater career, the only question at this point is peak. Bird had a run of 3 years where he was arguably the best player in the game. Bird's peak was 84-85-86 when he won his 2 FMVPs and 3 MVPs.

Outside of that he was all-star great and even all-NBA great, but not all-time great. All-time greatness is established in the playoffs. Outside of that 3 year peak, Bird's highest playoff PER was 21.8 in '87 and his highest playoff WS/48 was .198 in his second season '81. In total for his career, including his 3 year peak, Bird had two postseasons > 22.0 PER and two postseasons > .200 WS/48.

In 9 career postseasons, Bern has had 9 postseasons > 23.0 PER and 6 postseasons > .200 (as well as seasons at .187 and .198).

Career advantage: Bern

Peak?

Bird top 4 playoff PER:

'84 - 26.3 (FMVP)
'86 - 23.9 (FMVP)
'81 - 21.8
'87 - 21.8​

Bird top 4 playoff WS/48:

'86 - .263 (FMVP)
'84 - .236 (FMVP)
'81 - .198
'85 - .155​

Bern top 4 playoff PER:

'09 - 37.4
'12 - 30.3 (FMVP)
'10 - 28.6
'13 - 28.1 (FMVP)​

Bern top 4 playoff WS/48:

'09 - .399
'12 - .284 (FMVP)
'13 - .260 (FMVP)
'10 - .242​

Bern's peak has been ridiculously higher than Bird's (not to mention Bern plays in an era where defenses are allowed to play 5-on-1 while offensive players aren't allowed to attack defenders in the paint).

24/7 media has us all well-aware of the single sub-par (for him) playoff series of Bern's 11 year career when he put up 17.8 ppg on .478% shooting vs Dallas. How about Bird? Has he ever had a disappointing playoff series to end his team's season?

'82 ECF loss to Sixers -- 18.3 ppg on .412%
'83 ESF loss to Bucks -- 18.7 ppg on .441%
'87 Finals loss to Lakes -- 24.2 ppg on .445%
'88 ECF loss to Pistons -- 19.8 ppg on .351%

If you aren't a fan of numbers because you hate science, simply youtube some espn classic Boston Celtics games from the 80s and actually watch Bird play. He was a streak shooter who relied on mismatches to get easy buckets down low (Bird was a PF playing SF -- McHale guarded opposing SFs while Bird was typically guarded by opposing SFs). Bird was a great player, obviously, but as a man of science and a high-level expert historian of the game, I just can't include Bird in the highest tier of all-time greats.

Tier 1
Jordan, Kareem, Bern, Wilt, Magic

Tier 2
Duncan, Shaq, Bird, Russell, Olajuwon

 

[gspieler]

And Bird + his stacked team lost to Magic Johnson who most people compare Bern to.

Not to discredit anyone, but Miami is the best team in a weak NBA, and the product of a bunch of All-stars colluding to form a team to finally get Bern a ring. Name one other guy on that level(ok, arguably Wilt), who had to do that. But Wilt had the most dominant team in league history to contend with. Meanwhile, a 40yr old SA Spurs are still winning 60 games and going to the finals. The Celts and Lakers of the 80's are easily 2/5 best teams ever assembled. That's not even mentioning anyone else from that era. You can argue LeBron would simply be too much of a physical force for a guy like Bird, and that skill is essentially equal, but in terms of leadership, toughness, and competition, it's not even close.

 

[RabidJesus]

tldr

youre still wrong

 

[jrams]

LeBron and another top 5 NBA player colluded to join a team that had already beat the late great Dirk Nowitzki in the finals. In doing so the team got worse and got embarrassed by the poor man's Larry Bird.

Bird also never got shutdown by a guy nicknamed "Deloris" because of the size of his tits.

 

[jcandoitbig]

Bern already has the greater career, the only question at this point is peak. Bird had a run of 3 years where he was arguably the best player in the game. Bird's peak was 84-85-86 when he won his 2 FMVPs and 3 MVPs.

Outside of that he was all-star great and even all-NBA great, but not all-time great. All-time greatness is established in the playoffs. Outside of that 3 year peak, Bird's highest playoff PER was 21.8 in '87 and his highest playoff WS/48 was .198 in his second season '81. In total for his career, including his 3 year peak, Bird had two postseasons > 22.0 PER and two postseasons > .200 WS/48.

In 9 career postseasons, Bern has had 9 postseasons > 23.0 PER and 6 postseasons > .200 (as well as seasons at .187 and .198).

Career advantage: Bern

Peak?

Bird top 4 playoff PER:

'84 - 26.3 (FMVP)
'86 - 23.9 (FMVP)
'81 - 21.8
'87 - 21.8​

Bird top 4 playoff WS/48:

'86 - .263 (FMVP)
'84 - .236 (FMVP)
'81 - .198
'85 - .155​

Bern top 4 playoff PER:

'09 - 37.4
'12 - 30.3 (FMVP)
'10 - 28.6
'13 - 28.1 (FMVP)​

Bern top 4 playoff WS/48:

'09 - .399
'12 - .284 (FMVP)
'13 - .260 (FMVP)
'10 - .242​

Bern's peak has been ridiculously higher than Bird's (not to mention Bern plays in an era where defenses are allowed to play 5-on-1 while offensive players aren't allowed to attack defenders in the paint).

24/7 media has us all well-aware of the single sub-par (for him) playoff series of Bern's 11 year career when he put up 17.8 ppg on .478% shooting vs Dallas. How about Bird? Has he ever had a disappointing playoff series to end his team's season?

'82 ECF loss to Sixers -- 18.3 ppg on .412%
'83 ESF loss to Bucks -- 18.7 ppg on .441%
'87 Finals loss to Lakes -- 24.2 ppg on .445%
'88 ECF loss to Pistons -- 19.8 ppg on .351%

If you aren't a fan of numbers because you hate science, simply youtube some espn classic Boston Celtics games from the 80s and actually watch Bird play. He was a streak shooter who relied on mismatches to get easy buckets down low (Bird was a PF playing SF -- McHale guarded opposing SFs while Bird was typically guarded by opposing SFs). Bird was a great player, obviously, but as a man of science and a high-level expert historian of the game, I just can't include Bird in the highest tier of all-time greats.

Tier 1
Jordan, Kareem, Bern, Wilt, Magic

Tier 2
Duncan, Shaq, Bird, Russell, Olajuwon

how dare you bring such logic to sherdog! the only thing that matters is opinion, not fact!

 

[white-pony]

Comparing numbers is a pseudo science at best. Bern would be laughed out of the stadium trying to flop around with the way the game was played during Bird's time.

 

[justblaze717]

KD reminds me alot of Bird.

 

[casualfan]

Amazing how people say that "Lebron only scores because he bulldozes his way to the rim! He relies too much on physicality!"

Then go and say "Lebron won't make it in the 80's/90's NBA because it was too physical! He'll get bullied!"

Lulz.

 

[gspieler]

Amazing how people say that "Lebron only scores because he bulldozes his way to the rim! He relies too much on physicality!"

Then go and say "Lebron won't make it in the 80's/90's NBA because it was too physical! He'll get bullied!"

Lulz.

It's not that he bulldozes his way to the rim, it's how reacts every time there's any contact and he doesn't get the whistle. A 6'8", 260lb player of MVP-caliber player should not be pouting anytime he doesn't get the call. And the league just reinforces it by giving him almost every call anyway. Maybe that's where that perception comes from.

 

[Breakitdown]

I LOL hard anytime win shares (the most overrated stat of all time) and PER (the pseudo-stat) are ever used in arguments. First of all, they are fake stats that shouldn't be taken seriously, secondly the person using them never even knows what goes into the formulas.

LMAOO.



Simple stats to prove Lar Legend is better than Bern Jones:

Championships

Legend: 3
Juice 2*

Championships won as team leader

Legend: 3
Juice: 0 (wades team)

Ped Usage

Legend: Non existant
Juice: Rampant/uncontrollable (have links to support this)


The main thing that separates them is the fact that the known juicer (again, have links to support this, can be delivered upon request) literally tucked tail and ran to two other superstars when he couldn't win anything by himself. That would be like Legend running to the Lakers to play with Magic. This is probably the biggest black eye on the known steroid abuser's career, and will always keep him from entering the top 20 on the all time list of SFs.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I gotta admit... Canitdowns persona was getting a little old but the last post made me laugh for 1 reason. He has an * but nothing in his post to define the *.

Legendary.

 

[Lord Commander Palis]

Don't smoke the bong water.

Lebron destroys Bird in every facet aside from shooting. Must be a joke whoever said Lebron doesn't play elite defense.

Lebron will also surpass Jordan, get used to it.

Don't smoke the bong water?

Did you smoke the bong water then type this?

 

[Lord Commander Palis]

Go watch LolBron's greatest flops. Go watch some LolBron's play, his "skill". He is a great passer, amazing athleticism, DECENT shooter, but his overall skill + footwork is just not where it is to be considered a all time great. Flops + someone who relies mostly on athleticism = won't be considered a all time great.

His peak will be closing very fast, like a meteor crashing to Earth. Soon it'll be LolBron who? His only chance after this season is to get with another couple superstars and rely more on his passing ability. His decline is inevitable and rapid, he will need better skilled players to get buckets and more rings, his only chance and being considered top 50.

 

[faustian]

We've reached the point where Bern's athleticism is used as a critique against him. A professional athlete isn't an all-time great because... he's too athletic. It takes preposterous to an audacious level.

Bern's lack of skill:








banderas.gif:

 

[Breakitdown]

The GOAT EXPOSING the known steroid abuser.

Manufactured Superstar in every sense of the phrase.

Also note the sadistic grin on Riley's face in the thumb of the video. You can tell he already knows what the outcome of the series will be. This is what happens when the friendly/rigged can be summoned at any moment.