Kobe Bryant vs Hakeem Olajuwon

[Prime Rib]

The "he has more rings, therefore he's the better player" argument isn't really relevant here IMO. If Hakeem had been with an MVP-caliber player the first half of his career like Kobe was, it's a safe bet he would more than two rings.

Not necessarily since that coincides with The Bulls peaking.

 

[gspieler]

Not necessarily since that coincides with The Bulls peaking.

Yeah, it was definitely a more competitive era in which Hakeem competed. That said, Kobe had Shaq to serve as the foundation of the team for what...7 years. You give Hakeem another prime All-NBA caliber guy, eg Drexler, Isaiah, etc, and I'd still wager there brining home at least one ring during that stretch. And that's a stretch that included, Bird's Celtics, Showtime, MJ's Bulls, the Bad Boys, etc.

 

[FLYOVER BOSSMAN]

@Breakitdown
@The One True

 

[Cold187um]

Both Top 10 all time,depending on the day I make my list Kobe is in the 4,5,6 spots and Dream is 8,9,10

 

[Bay Area]

Right but Kobe's career outside of the first 3 rings alone matches Hakeem. Add in the 3 titles(and 4 conf titles) and it's a clear victory for Kobe.

See this is why I don't count rings when determining a player's greatness...UNLESS that player was the Finals MVP. My point is that if Hakeem had a top 5 player of all time on his squad... Hakeem would have had more than 2 rings. Kobe happened to play with a man who was unstoppable in his prime. Hakeem had no such teammate. So how is that a mark against Hakeems legacy when those are the moves of the team executive office?

 

[gspieler]

See this is why I don't count rings when determining a player's greatness...UNLESS that player was the Finals MVP. My point is that if Hakeem had a top 5 player of all time on his squad... Hakeem would have had more than 2 rings. Kobe happened to play with a man who was unstoppable in his prime. Hakeem had no such teammate. So how is that a mark against Hakeems legacy when those are the moves of the team executive office?

Rings are basically tie-breakers when all other factors are similar/equal. A good example of this would be Magic/Bird. Otherwise:

Wilt > Russell
Malone > Dirk
Etc

 

[Bay Area]

Imagine this, Hakeem was only a few years younger when he STARTED playing basketball as Kobe was when he was drafted into the NBA


lol



you cant find a singularly more naturally gifted player in the history of the game than Dream

The Dream Shake was as revolutionary as the alley oop. Never before seen in the history of the NBA.
The world was stunned when they first saw it:

 

[Bay Area]

Rings are basically tie-breakers when all other factors are similar/equal. A good example of this would be Magic/Bird. Otherwise:

Wilt > Russell
Malone > Dirk
Etc

But again why are we crediting Kobe's 3 rings when he played with Shaq, and Dream never had that dominant of a teammate? Or why is that a mark against Dream?

 

[gspieler]

But again why are we crediting Kobe's 3 rings when he played with Shaq, and Dream never had that dominant of a teammate

You're right, not all rings should be weighed the same. Nonetheless, Kobe still deserves credit for being a big part of the rings he won with Shaq. Likewise, Hakeem deserves credit for taking mediocre supporting casts to the playoffs at all.

 

[TheComebackKid]

See this is why I don't count rings when determining a player's greatness...UNLESS that player was the Finals MVP. My point is that if Hakeem had a top 5 player of all time on his squad... Hakeem would have had more than 2 rings. Kobe happened to play with a man who was unstoppable in his prime. Hakeem had no such teammate. So how is that a mark against Hakeems legacy when those are the moves of the team executive office?

It's not a mark against Hakeem's legacy...it's a plus for Kobe's. Kobe should get equal hare of the credit of those titles with Shaq considering he was all NBA and averaging 25-30pts a game during that run. But even if you wanted to relegate Kobe to 2nd fiddle that is still 3 extra championships as the #2 guy on his resume. Those accomplishments still carry weight and put his resume over the top.

I would agree that had Hakeem had better teammates he could have possibly won even more rings. I could also say the same about Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Robinson, Payton, Kobe(05-07), Wilt, Robertson, and many others. The fact is players get lucky sometimes with the teams, coaches, and systems they wind up in. By assuming Hakeem would have won more rings had he had better teammates, and then crediting him for them, is unfair to Kobe who actually did it.

 

[TheComebackKid]

You're right, not all rings should be weighed the same. Nonetheless, Kobe still deserves credit for being a big part of the rings he won with Shaq. Likewise, Hakeem deserves credit for taking mediocre supporting casts to the playoffs at all.

Hakeem didn't have much all star level assistance and deserves credit for that but it is also true that he had exceptional role players the same way MJ & Kobe did(08-10). Horry and Elie went onto validate their greatness as championship level role players with later teams. Cassell would go on to be recognized as one of the more high iq, big moment players in the league for a time. He had Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, and later on Clyde Drexler. It wasn't like Hakeem was out there with Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm.

 

[Bay Area]

It's not a mark against Hakeem's legacy...it's a plus for Kobe's. Kobe should get equal hare of the credit of those titles with Shaq considering he was all NBA and averaging 25-30pts a game during that run. But even if you wanted to relegate Kobe to 2nd fiddle that is still 3 extra championships as the #2 guy on his resume. Those accomplishments still carry weight and put his resume over the top.

I would agree that had Hakeem had better teammates he could have possibly won even more rings. I could also say the same about Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Robinson, Payton, Kobe(05-07), Wilt, Robertson, and many others. The fact is players get lucky sometimes with the teams, coaches, and systems they wind up in. By assuming Hakeem would have won more rings had he had better teammates, and then crediting him for them, is unfair to Kobe who actually did it.

Its a mark against Hakeem if you are trying to decide who is better... Hakeem or Kobe...and you're not picking Hakeem because Kobe got 3 more rings.You're giving Kobe the edge based on the moves of the Laker executive team. How is that Hakeems fault? If Houston got Shaq, a top 5 player in his prime, you would be saying Hakeem is better than Kobe.

 

[gspieler]

It's not a mark against Hakeem's legacy...it's a plus for Kobe's. Kobe should get equal hare of the credit of those titles with Shaq considering he was all NBA and averaging 25-30pts a game during that run. But even if you wanted to relegate Kobe to 2nd fiddle that is still 3 extra championships as the #2 guy on his resume. Those accomplishments still carry weight and put his resume over the top.

I would agree that had Hakeem had better teammates he could have possibly won even more rings. I could also say the same about Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Robinson, Payton, Kobe(05-07), Wilt, Robertson, and many others. The fact is players get lucky sometimes with the teams, coaches, and systems they wind up in. By assuming Hakeem would have won more rings had he had better teammates, and then crediting him for them, is unfair to Kobe who actually did it.

I think we can all agree that rings are secondary consideration when analyzing a player's greatness.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Its a mark against Hakeem if you are trying to decide who is better... Hakeem or Kobe. You're giving Kobe the edge based on the moves of the Laker executive team. How is that Hakeems fault? If Houston got Shaq, you would be saying Hakeem is better than Kobe.

Well all time lists aren't strictly about who are the best players when it comes to skill and ability. It's usually a mix of that plus resume. Kobe is every bit as good as Hakeem was. Hakeem was great offensively but incredible defensively. Kobe was great defensively but incredible offensively. You could argue all day about who is actually the better basketball player. But when you go to their resumes Kobe's edges him out. Therefore Kobe edges him out on the all time list.

 

[gspieler]

Hakeem didn't have much all star level assistance and deserves credit for that but it is also true that he had exceptional role players the same way MJ & Kobe did(08-10). Horry and Elie went onto validate their greatness as championship level role players with later teams. Cassell would go on to be recognized as one of the more high iq, big moment players in the league for a time. He had Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell, Kenny Smith, and later on Clyde Drexler. It wasn't like Hakeem was out there with Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm.

Hakeem's supporting casts were average, by NBA standards of the time. That's pretty impressive, given championship teams usually(but not always) have stellar supporting casts. It might be the most underated aspect to winning titles. You need guys with iq, work ethic, and specialized skill sets, who also don't have egos.

 

[gspieler]

Its a mark against Hakeem if you are trying to decide who is better... Hakeem or Kobe...and you're not picking Hakeem because Kobe got 3 more rings.You're giving Kobe the edge based on the moves of the Laker executive team. How is that Hakeems fault? If Houston got Shaq, a top 5 player in his prime, you would be saying Hakeem is better than Kobe.

IMO, Kobe winning with Shaq is the rough equivalent to Dream making to 2nd round.

 

[TheComebackKid]

I think we can all agree that rings are secondary consideration when analyzing a player's greatness.

Well I think it's just one part of a myriad of factors to consider when assessing a players greatness. The number of rings and how one got them matters. Individual accolades are important. Stats are big. Longevity should be considered. Intangibles like the eye test, big moments, and overall impact on the league/sport carry weight. It's about weighing it all together.

 

[Bay Area]

IMO, Kobe winning with Shaq is the rough equivalent to Dream making to 2nd round.

Agreed... for all 3 of Kobe's rings. So it's a wash.

 

[Bay Area]

The fact is players get lucky sometimes with the teams, coaches, and systems they wind up in.

This sums up my point exactly. We also need to take into account Kobe had one of the greatest coaches in history on his squad

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Hakeem beat better teams in his championship years than Kobe did in his.

Barkley's Suns twice, arguably the best Knicks team ever with a prime Ewing, Malone & Stockton twice, an absolutely loaded Spurs team that everyone and their mom was picking to win the championship, a young Magic that was certainly on its way to being a dynasty.

That dismantling of league MVP David Robinson is unmatched