KO power and "submission hold strength" is vastly overstimated.

[Rubios]

First, I have no clue of how strong Ilia or Khamzat are. I'm sure they have very, very, very hight relative strength.

But, and if you have just trained a bit at ANY level, you know any dude with a functional shoulder/wrist/hip can exert the force needed to KO another dude. If you accurately land an unexpected shot, it's lights out.

Regarding punching power: I can tell a dude like Beterbiev, that landing on a tight guard still does serious damage, has power. Or guys like Deontay, Francis, Rampage, Poatan and so on that even landing glazing shots, his opponents rolling with them or not hitting perfectly on target... KTFO their opponents.

Regarding grappling strength, and that comes from someone that has barely no clinch/wrestling/ground training and has only played a little to know how it feels... (but these words are from my teacher's).
Human body is very, very fragile.
If you catch someone the right way, so you have the leverage and he is in a compromised position, the strength relation between you two goes almost logarythmically.

You don't need insane strength by any means to break someone's jaw if the crank is perfectly taken and executed. Even if it's perfectly defended once you got the upper hand regarding positioning.

 

[Substance Abuse]

 

[chinarice]

Ilia and Khamzat are trash, got a fluke sub and KO win.

Rob and Max are definitely the better fighters! Fucking luckbox, no skill Ilia and Khamzat!

 

[Rubios]

Ilia and Khamzat are trash, got a fluke sub and KO win.

Rob and Max are definitely the better fighters! Fucking luckbox, no skill Ilia and Khamzat!

I didn't say nor think that. Ilia and Khamzat proved to be the better fighters.

 

[Paolo Delutis]

I think strength is just part of the equation of what gets you a finish grappling does have elements of strength to it but actually I would argue it's more about leverage and control with striking strength definitely plays a factor but no matter how strong you are you have to get to the Target you have to get the power to land that has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with technique and your ability to read your opponent and anticipate..


My point being most of the time these KL shots that land on people will k.o just about anybody because they were set up properly they were properly anticipated and they were delivered with enough power and strength necessary in that moment to create The knockout a lot of things happen in order for a knockout to take place... And some of them aren't even because of the person throwing the punch sometimes it's about what the opponent did or didn't do before the strike for example Holloway dropped his hand which opened the opportunity for the left hook

 

[Marko Polo]

It’s about how hard your punches are at the end of a flurry, or when you’re tired. Topuria threw about twenty punches in 5 seconds before he felled Max, but the last punch still had power.

 

[Rubios]

I may add that relative strength and strength endurance plays a huge factor in wrestling/grappling (given the two fighters are fundamentally sound) but, once the lock is set, there's no need for exceptional strength at all.

That's my point: I'm not understimating the value of strength in wrestling and grappling as a whole. I'm sticking to the title thread.

 

[Ballsaque]

Many many many people have been neckcracked to shit and back in the UFC without anything breaking.

Though, this break was more of Robs teeth being compromised already as far as I can understand.

 

[Dionysian]

As someone that has trained... no... there are levels. Some guys punches will never make you overly worry regardless of technique. Literally changes the way you fight if you know they can't keep you honest / one technical mistake on your part means some scuffing on your face / points for him rather than the fight ending in a second. Punching power varies wildly.

Grappling even moreso. Technique-aside and weight-aside, everyone learns the guys that are consistently able to move an arm if they get wrist control vs ones that can't.

And no, both those things are extremely important for combat. Hold strength can make all the difference between the sweep not working for instance. Or a sub working / your teeth caving in. Watch DDP vs Gracie Barra South Africa guys for him applying chokes that literally wouldn't work without heavy strength. He gets them left and right.

 

[650lb Sumo]

I reject the premise of this thread.

 

[haj02]

Do you have any evidence that someone with average strength can break a jaw with a crank easily? Have you or your coach tested this or are you both talking out of your asses?

And you are way off on punching power, you can either punch or you can't - technique will never turn a non puncher into a puncher.

 

[Lee Danger]

well, it's the logic that is the base of grappling: leverages make an average strong man able to break other people.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

I don’t think you’ve trained with people who have the death touch. True one punch KO power with which they’ve put people’s lights out with one punch multiple times in fights.

I also don’t think you’ve grappled someone who’s strength stands out, even compared to other professionals who are also freakishly strong.

Literally game changers. You can compensate a lot of technique if you have these attributes. But if you find someone with these attributes and high relative skill, that’s when you get someone extremely dangerous

 

[188912345]

One good example in regards to power is Poatan and Rakic. Jiri just ate clean shots from Rakic over and over again, didn't respect his power at all.

Vs Poatan, it was lights out even from short hooks. Changes the game completely.

Jiri said Rakic didn't have any "whip" to his punches, whereas Alex technique and torque is just so good that he didn't need to wind up to put him down.

 

[NoStoneUnturned]

As someone that has trained... no... there are levels. Some guys punches will never make you overly worry regardless of technique. Literally changes the way you fight if you know they can't keep you honest / one technical mistake on your part means some scuffing on your face / points for him rather than the fight ending in a second. Punching power varies wildly.

Grappling even moreso. Technique-aside and weight-aside, everyone learns the guys that are consistently able to move an arm if they get wrist control vs ones that can't.

And no, both those things are extremely important for combat. Hold strength can make all the difference between the sweep not working for instance. Or a sub working / your teeth caving in. Watch DDP vs Gracie Barra South Africa guys for him applying chokes that literally wouldn't work without heavy strength. He gets them left and right.

Correct. I've wrestled a great many people and the only people who think some humans aren't different either by birth or a ridiculous amount of work is astonishing. We had a 17 year old kid (145er) whose neck was so thick and powerful an ex D1 wrestler and world team member couldn't move his head or snap him. He stopped wrestling the kid in the middle of the practice, had the kid turn around and was feeling his neck, and then turns to me and says this kid is like Wolverine, just adamantium. When the kids would turn practice into tap out or pass out it was almost, keyword almost, impossible to choke that bastard out. The kid didn't work his neck, other than wrestling practice, just born with it. Point is, you can burn your arms out trying to choke somebody like that out. Impervious to cranks unless you catch it just right. At the highest levels the differences are small, but nonetheless they exist.

 

[Rubios]

Fair, fair. I'd have no problem eating my words but, in short and being concrete:

- Khamzat displayed great strength to get Rob down and manhandle him at will. But, once the jaw crank was so perfecly locked, there was no need for any strength feat.

Jiri, i.e., submitted Glover with a barely closed rnc.

- Top has heavy hands, everyone who has fought him says so. But the perfect hook he caught Max with would do the same coming from anyone (anyone who is an elite fighter, I mean).

If any ranked FW (except Aljo lol) lands a totally unexpected, clean, precise and full range hook to an opponent looking elsewhere... he is going down.


Do we agree on that?

 

[HHJ]

Nothing is impressive.

Anyone can do it.

 

[Ares Black]

What an odd thread

 

[HHJ]

- Khamzat displayed great strength to get Rob down and manhandle him at will. But, once the jaw crank was so perfecly locked, there was no need for any strength feat.

Jiri, i.e., submitted Glover with a barely closed rnc.

These two are nowhere near the same situations.

Glover was extremely exhausted and had no strength to fight the choke. If that happened in the first round he would not have even got caught in that.

 

[AmonTobin]

It’s about how hard your punches are at the end of a flurry, or when you’re tired. Topuria threw about twenty punches in 5 seconds before he felled Max, but the last punch still had power.

That last left hook hit him hard enough that it looked like someone had pulled Max to the ground by his ears.