Kentucky Derby...and Beyond?

Birdstone taking out Smarty Jones back in the day? Only reason I bring it up is b/c that was the first horse racing bet I've ever won. Me my bro and my Grandpa and Grandma would watch the big 3 races together but Grandpa (rip) talked me out of the to 'win" play and only bet him to show b/c he didn't think he had a chance and I was just a kid who didn't know shit about the horses other than I had watched the Derby and Preakness with them earlier that year. Gramps went to the otb and put a few bucks on all our picks, didn't get my 50-1 or whatever it was, but still won a good amount, especially for a kid, haha.

Anyway unnecessary story but nostalgia taking the best of me after several drinks, lol.

One of the first races I thought of today was the 2008 Belmont when Da'Tara won it wire-to-wire at almost 40/1, and Big Brown, who was a huge favourite at 1/2 or maybe even 1/5 (something like that), ended up barely finishing the race way back there in last.

Rachel Alexandra coming back as a 4 year-old after crushing everythinng in her 3 year-old campaign and losing at odds of something like 1/20 was also a huge shocker to everyone. She didn't get trounced it that race like Arrogate and Big Brown did, though, from what I remember.
 
Songbird has come back this year looking less than what she was last year. She's won both times, but not nearly as impressively as she was winning her races last here, and she hasn't been racing against much this year. I think both races of her races this year were decided by less than a length. The first time she may have had excuses for considering she was coming back off a layoff. But for it to happen two times in a row? I'll be betting against her in her next race because she is still likely to go off at odds of 1/5 or something like that.
 
Ah Yeah I remember Big Brown, he had a trainer who juiced his horses up or something iirc, or there was some issue like that? So many horses seem to win the first two but fall in the belmont.
 
Ah Yeah I remember Big Brown, he had a trainer who juiced his horses up or something iirc, or there was some issue like that? So many horses seem to win the first two but fall in the belmont.

Yeah, and he bragged about giving Big Brown his steroid shots every month. He was a real scumbag who didn't hide anything. It all came back to bite him in the ass, though, as he's like 5 years into a 10 year suspension that was handed down to him some years ago. Should've kept his mouth shut.
 
Big Brown was the one horse I'm glad didn't win the Triple Crown and all because of his trainer. That guy was so fucking arrogant and cocky in addition to being a total scumbag.
 
Some of the racing results this year have defied logic. They just don't make sense, so I may throw logic out the window next week when it comes to betting the Haskell and Jim Dandy me thinks. Pick a name out of hat. Bet on the #4 horse in each race regardless who it is. Or handicap the race and then bet the complete opposite of what I think will happen. Something like that. I don't know. I've been losing confidence over the last few months and this result today can only compound that. How can anybody bet with any confidence when we get shit like this happening? The best horse who is trained by the best trainer (in the US at least) goes out and gets beat 15+ lengths by some 3rd raters.

I think this kind of thing happens to pretty much all sports bettors at some point, Shark. No matter how crazy things get in the short term the universe will always correct itself over the long haul. From my experience, the best thing to do in these situations is either take a little break or stick with what's always worked for you and ride it out. Anyone who's followed this thread for any length of time will agree that your horse racing capping skills are top notch.
 
I think this kind of thing happens to pretty much all sports bettors at some point, Shark. No matter how crazy things get in the short term the universe will always correct itself over the long haul. From my experience, the best thing to do in these situations is either take a little break or stick with what's always worked for you and ride it out. Anyone who's followed this thread for any length of time will agree that your horse racing capping skills are top notch.

Cheers T.

Yeah, things are going to right themselves soon enough. I've been through this before a number of times and will go through it again a bunch in the future also. All part of the game. Still gets frustrating though. Hopefully we can right this ship next weekend. It only takes one nice paying exacta to turn a bad last few months into a great few months. Doesn't take much. One really good opinion can make up for a lot of bad opinions right quick.
 
The post positions and morning line odds for the Jim Dandy on Saturday and the Haskell on Sunday.


Jim Dandy;

1 - Always Dreaming - 1/1
2 - Cloud Computing - 6/5
3 - Guiseppe the Great - 10/1
4 - Pavel - 6/1
5 - Good Samaritan - 12/1


Haskell;

1 - Irish War Cry - 5/2
2 - Battle of Midway - 5/1
3 - Timeline - 3/1
4 - Practical Joke - 4/1
5 - McCraken - 9/2
6 - Hence - 12/1
7 - Girvin - 6/1


As always the Brisnet past performances can be found here;

https://downthestretchs.com/tag/free-past-performances/


The Haskell drew an interesting well matched field, but that Jim Dandy is disappointing. Anybody have any leans? I haven't looked much at the PP's myself, but if I bet both of these races this weekend I'm likely to look at the horses who may still have their best race ahead of them rather than back the ones who may have already peaked already. So if I did bet the Jim Dandy I would lean towards Cloud Computing over Always Dreaming, although Good Samaritan has appeal if he's sitting at his 12/1 morning line odds on Saturday due to the first time turf to dirt angle being a pretty decent angle for the most part, as well as him already showing he can be a competitive sort in G1 company. He's got class. He hasn't shown he can show that class yet on dirt obviously. But he's got class nonetheless. Maybe a little stab at a win/place bet with him considering the top 2 choices haven't raced since the Preakness (over 2 months ago) and may be a little short on Saturday. Not sure yet. The Haskell should be a great betting race if you can come up with a good betting opinion. My initial lean is towards the upside potential as well as the consistency of horses like Timeline and Battle of Midway. Monmouth historically favours those on or close to the lead on Haskell day as well, so those two have shown a running style in the past that should benefit them on that day.

Anybody have any thoughts?
 
I guess Baffert is going to be saving American Anthem for the King's Bishop on the Travers undercard afterall. Looks like that's the plan anyways. I would have liked to have seen him try to stretch out to route races one more time, but if he's having so much success in sprint races (3-for-3 at 7F or less...0-for-3 at 8F or more) it may simply be the case of "if it's not broke don't fix it". Completely understandable. I think Baffert knows what he's doing.
 
These are very likely to be my Jim Dandy plays for tomorrow;

- Good Samaritan to win for 1u and to place for 2u
- Cloud Computing over Good Samaritan exacta for 1u

I've been looking at this field some more and I think there's some very good value there with Good Samaritan at anything close to his morning line odds. Him trying dirt for the first time is obviously a question, but after watching his previous races on turf he looks like a horse that could handle it. He doesn't have the raised running action of a typical turf horse. Instead he has that low to the ground action more associated with dirt horses. That lower base also allows him to have a whole lot of extension when he's asked to do some real running. So visually he looks like he could handle the surface change. There's enough dirt influences in his recent pedigree to suggest he can handle it too. Also, this doesn't look like a move out of desperation by the trainer because this horse has by no means embarrassed himself running against the best turf horses of his crop. He's a G2 winner on the grass, and has finished no worse than 4th in any of his races (in a G1 race, in an 11 horse field, beaten 3 lengths by Oscar Performance). He was finishing just behind just good turf horses in graded stakes races, and was competitive in each of them. Because he's been so competitive and has shown class against the top turf horses of his crop, to me this looks like a trainer move that suggests that the trainer is confident the horse can handle the switch. He may not have been able to beat Oscar Performance on turf, but there's definitely graded stakes races on that surface with his name on it. This is a move out of confidence I think, rather than one out of desperation. It has to be. The trainer doesn't have a great record making this turf to dirt move, but he does have a winning percentage making this move that is much better than what Good Samaritan's odds suggest. Plus this horse is an individual on it's own. The other times the trainer tried this move were likely under very different circumstances for most of them.

Keeping on that same theme of "trainer intentions". What are the two favourites in this race for? Are they in it to try to win the Jim Dandy? Or are they entered in this race as a prep for the bigger race next month in the Travers? It is a Travers prep race afterall. Are either Cloud Computing or Always Dreaming going to be fully cranked tomorrow after a 2+ month layoff and with bigger fish to fry next month? One of them may be cranked to give something close to their top effort. Maybe. But both of them? Eh, I'm not sure about that. Always Dreaming just got back on the worktab in early July and has only worked 18F in total since the Preakness. Is he anything close to peak condition? Hmm. Between him and Cloud Computing it's probably going to be the latter who has an edge in physical conditioning as he has worked 26F in total since the Preakness. Good Samaritan has had 22F of work since the Preakness, in addition to also having two races within that span as well at 9F and 10F. If any of the horses are going to be fit enough to run their best race, whatever that best race may be on the surface for him, Good Samaritan looks like he could be the one.

So with possible question regarding Always Dreaming's fitness levels and in addition to what the trainer's intentions are for the race, what happens when this horse is tackled early on by a horse like Pavel. A horse who has had one race in his career, which was a sprint race at 6.5F and where he led the whole way. Pavel's only chances to win this race if you drew it up is to tackle Always Dreaming early and hope that Always Dreaming packs it in early. Like he did in the Preakness. Always Dreaming was able to win the races he did when he was able to sit comfortable positions and race well within himself. The first time he actually got a real challenge from another horse in Classic Empire he quit and he quit badly. He got physically dominated in the Preakness from a herd dynamic standpoint and was mentally broken. A lot of times we don't see horses recover from that. Some do. But some also don't. They're herd animals. Some horses are comfortable conceding herd leadership to others. And some aren't. Always Dreaming was winning his races easily before and without being challenged much, so it was probably in his mind that he was a herd leader in those races. When he entered a race like the Preakness and found out he wasn't the herd leader, how does he react in the future because of it? Who knows. But horses do get demoralized by things like that all the time, and lose their confidence. That may be something that only affects him if he meets Classic Empire again in the future. But it also may go deeper. e.g. Look at California Chrome earlier in the year. Arrogate beat him heads up last year in the BC Classic. Ran him down in the stretch, challenged him by looking him right in the eye, and then went by him. The next time they met California Chrome conceded to Arrogate as soon as some real running began, and then proceeded to finish way up the track in 9th or whatever it was. That's only one example. But it happens all the time in racing.

So how does Always Dreaming respond to an early challenge from a horse like Pavel? Who knows. But it's another question with him in addition to the ones regarding his fitness level and trainer intentions. And if he does manage to repel an early challenge from Pavel, how does he react to a challenge from Cloud Computing that should be happening soon after? Who knows. If Always Dreaming is fit enough, is entered with the intention of giving his best effort, and also gets to sit a nice comfortable trip on the front end without much in the way of challenges, then yeah, he's definitely in a position to win the race. No doubt. But is that what's going to happen? I have my doubts. I think we'll see Pavel challenge Always Dreaming early enough, and whomever is left out of those two to fend off the other runners will be a sitting duck for a horse like Cloud Computing (who should be sitting 3rd right behind those two most of the way) coming off the turn. If Cloud Computing isn't ready for a good effort based on his fitness level or trainer intentions then I could see it being Good Samaritan who's picking up the pieces late.

So there. In novel form (sorry), those are my thoughts on the race. The Travers is coming up next month and with that being my favourite race on the calendar each year, I'm starting to get excited. So let's get it started by winning some fucking money on the traditional Travers prep shall we? I could use some.
 
The only Jim Dandy horse I didn't give mention to was Guiseppe the Great. Watch now, that's the one that will end up winning the race. The race scenario I came up with above does give him a chance to run a good race, though, and him rounding out a exacta or trifecta isn't at all impossible. If I went 3 deep in exotics he'd be the one I'd use.
 
Shit, maybe I should use him at the price he'll be going off as. Hmm.

- Good Samaritan to win for 1u and place for 2u
- Cloud Computing over Good Samaritan/Guiseppe the Great exactas for 0.5u each

Yeah maybe. I don't mind that.
 
Shit, maybe I should use him at the price he'll be going off as. Hmm.

- Good Samaritan to win for 1u and place for 2u
- Cloud Computing over Good Samaritan/Guiseppe the Great exactas for 0.5u each

Yeah maybe. I don't mind that.

Tailing everything, Shark. I'll probably be on the golf course during the race but thanks for the breakdown and for sharing your picks. Best of luck bud!
 
I ended up boxing the exacta with those 3 horses guys. Not sure that was a smart idea, but one of the guys I talked to down at the OTB also liked Guissepe the Great quite a bit so I decided to give the horse just a bit more respect.

I also ended up making a play in the G2 Bowling Green in the race before the Jim Dandy. 1u on Bigger Picture to win. Nothing crazy.
 
That was a tough beat. Bigger Picture got ran down by a 16/1 longshot in the last few strides to lose by 1/4 length.
 
Yeah he almost pulled it out there. Apparently that Joe Bravo or whatever his name is, guys on tv were saying they really liked the way he rode. Not a bad bet at all, horse racing is so enticing to watch b/c of those close finishes though. Lots of last second drama in this sport. I love it.
 
Yeah he almost pulled it out there. Apparently that Joe Bravo or whatever his name is, guys on tv were saying they really liked the way he rode. Not a bad bet at all, horse racing is so enticing to watch b/c of those close finishes though. Lots of last second drama in this sport. I love it.

Yeah, I feel okay about betting that horse. We beat the two favourites with him and only lost to a big longshot at the line. This was a tough beat, but that's a winning bet more often than not.
 
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