Ken vs barnett

[Deleted member 449757]

This is the problem with Pancrase: Absolutely nothing is "official" about the works. It's all hearsay, it's all second- or third-hand info, plenty of people make up BS about people they don't like - one guy, not sure if he was a Lion's Den guy or not, claimed that Frank's entire career was all worked victories! - and nothing is archived anywhere for easy reference. Even I'm just going off of memory and shit that I've accrued in the last 20 years. The only thing that's corroborated by absolutely everyone is that every decision was made by Funaki and Suzuki and it went only as far from them as Ken. Funaki and Suzuki were in charge and Ken was their protégé and champ. Anyone else who talks like an authority is lying. And the only info that's trickled out over the years that I recall is as follows:

1) There were absolutely no works, no carrying, no nothing for that first show. That was their debut as a real fight org and they wanted to really fight. That's why the entire card had only 15 minutes of fighting and the entire show beginning to end with all entrances and resets lasted 57 minutes. That worried the pro-wrestling showmen, they didn't want fans to feel like they didn't get a full show experience or get their money's worth, so that planted the seed for maybe incorporating some pro-wrestling elements like carrying or working.

2) There were absolutely no works, no carrying, no nothing for the King of Pancrase tournament. That was the culmination of their efforts at making a legit combat sport org. Though there was some rope escape shenanigans to help Suzuki edge Matt Hume on points and move on in the tournament

3) The fights that I've seen most often listed and most plausibly explained to be works are Ken's victory over Matt Hume (Hume was hurt and didn't want to fight Ken at a disadvantage, but he also didn't want to have the entire match canceled, so he agreed to just do a work with Ken), Ken's loss to Funaki in their second fight (Ken was fighting in UFC 3 a week later, plus Funaki had just accidentally lost to Ken's new Lion's Den protégé and debuting Pancrase fighter Jason Delucia, so this sort of squared things moving on in the "Road to the Championship" series of events heading into the King of Pancrase tournament), Ken's loss to Suzuki in their second fight (Pancrase hated Ken competing in the UFC while he was the Pancrase champ, and they wanted him to intentionally lose and give up the title before his UFC 5 Superfight with Royce but Ken refused to lose to Bas who he'd already beat, but then when they kept hounding him ahead of his UFC 6 Superfight with Severn, he said fuck it, gave his title up to Suzuki, and focused on being UFC champ), and Funaki/Suzuki (they started Pancrase together, and while they wanted to be the best, they also wanted to focus on building the org together rather than fight each other, so they gave the fans a show and did a pro-wrestling throwback).

As an academic, though, it drives me nuts that I can't cite any sources, that I don't have verifiable proof that I can provide for corroboration. The Japanese culture of secrecy really fucks things up. I wish someone would write a book and get the full scoop, get on the record interviews with everyone and get all the stories and info. But alas, this is just the shit that I've heard most often and most believably.

I don't really care either way whether a fight is worked or a shoot. Doesn't make a difference to me as long as it's good. I do find interesting though that Karl Gotch once said that his biggest problem with Funaki was that he would care too much about putting others over instead of wrestling properly (he named Rickson Gracie as an example of someone with no skill who got put over by Funaki though, lmao).

BTW if you're interested: Ken Shamrock interview where he talks about his Pancrase fights (including Hume):

https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/japans-rich-mma-history-the-ken-shamrock-interview-part-4-of-7

 

[TheMaster]

Frank has endless stories of Ken mauling him and everyone else at the Lion's Den (as does every individual member). Ken was the alpha dog. Stronger and slicker than everybody, Frank included. In fact, Frank owes more to Ken than he does to Maurice Smith and TK combined. Ken taught him the skills and toughened him up. Frank was prone to gassing and mentally checking out, so Ken would stay on him and he molded Frank into the beastly competitor that he was.

Ken taught Frank the fundamentals but Frank really came into his own and attained legendary levels when he left the lions den. This is what bothered Ken the most. Thats when he really started having big success in MMA. Yes, Frank owes it to Ken for training him in the basics him, but then you can also say he owes much of those fundamentals to Funaki and Kens teachers and his time in Japan, as well as to guys like Jason Delucia who he trained with daily.

You're also way off on acting like Ken gave Frank his toughness. Thats not something you can teach. Ken may have helped awaken it more in Frank who wasnt an athlete but Frank had it in spades already, further shaped from having a rough childhood and being in prison.

Hearing you speak with this giddy sing song praise on all aspects Ken is tolerable only to the extent it doesnt artificially diminish others or give credit or take it when it isnt due. Ken actually never had a good relationship with Frank and tried to get rid off him from the Lions Den according to Frank as well as numerous other incidents I'm not going to get into.

Frank developed much of his elite grappling skills himself after he left the lions Den. I recall at their peaks, when Sakuraba had taken so many Gracie scalps the worldwide dream grappling match was Sakuraba vs Frank - not Ken, who Royce had already disposed of so to speak.
It actually transpired eventually but was a boring standing grapppling stalemate.

 

[Bullitt68]

Well, this thread definitely gave me a new appreciation for Ken.

It sounds like he was fighting a higher quality of fighters in Pancrase than he was in the UFC.

In the narrowly-confined realm of grappling, yes. This is why after Ken heel hooked Pat Smith at UFC 1 he said in his post-fight interview that his UFC fight was easier than his Pancrase fights because the UFC guys don't know how to do submissions. (This is also why he'd be surprised by Royce's grappling ability in his very next fight: He didn't think any of those guys knew how to do submissions.) But in the "no holds barred" realm of the UFC, who knows how the Pancrase guys' catch skills would've fared?

I really wish he would have fought some of the other big names, like Coleman, Couture, Kerr, Vitor, Tank, Ruas, etc.

Me too. It's a seismic "What if?" considering how important Ken's fame was to helping the sport go mainstream in the 2000s, from headlining the first PRIDE show broadcast on 24-hour tape delay on US PPV against Frye at PRIDE 19 to his fight with Tito at UFC 40 and headlining the TUF 1 finale against Rich Franklin. But that was courtesy of his exposure in the WWF, which is where he spent four years of his prime. Instead of staying in the UFC and fighting all the great guys who came through from 1996-2000, Ken was in the WWF making a ton of money and helping his camp and his family but absolutely wrecking his body. Without Ken's WWF fame helping to push MMA into the mainstream, who knows what the sport would've looked like? But without going to the WWF and sacrificing the second half of his prime, who knows what Ken's career would've looked like?

I'm for sure going to check out more of his career.

Enjoy!

Ken taught Frank the fundamentals but Frank really came into his own and attained legendary levels when he left the lions den. This is what bothered Ken the most. Thats when he really started having big success in MMA. Yes, Frank owes it to Ken for training him in the basics him, but then you can also say he owes much of those fundamentals to Funaki and Kens teachers and his time in Japan, as well as to guys like Jason Delucia who he trained with daily.

You're also way off on acting like Ken gave Frank his toughness. Thats not something you can teach. Ken may have helped awaken it more in Frank who wasnt an athlete but Frank had it in spades already, further shaped from having a rough childhood and being in prison.

Hearing you speak with this giddy sing song praise on all aspects Ken is tolerable only to the extent it doesnt artificially diminish others or give credit or take it when it isnt due. Ken actually never had a good relationship with Frank and tried to get rid off him from the Lions Den according to Frank as well as numerous other incidents I'm not going to get into.

Frank developed much of his elite grappling skills himself after he left the lions Den. I recall at their peaks, when Sakuraba had taken so many Gracie scalps the worldwide dream grappling match was Sakuraba vs Frank - not Ken, who Royce had already disposed of so to speak.
It actually transpired eventually but was a boring standing grapppling stalemate.

For the record, you can keep responding to stuff that I post, but I'm sick of your shtick, so I'm no longer going to engage you in conversation.

 

[don't ask]

In the narrowly-confined realm of grappling, yes.

I'm looking at his record and thinking Hume, Bas and Maurice Smith were better than any of the guys he fought in the UFC (before he fought Tito and Rich Franklin much later, I mean). Am I crazy?

 

[Kforcer]

I thought this one was officially billed as an exhibition match? Does anybody here have further info or am i misremembering something? Maybe @Mbetz1981 knows more about that match?

My understanding with that match was that there were injuries that forced them to proceed with it as what was in essence, an exhibition.

For anyone interested, here's a pretty in-depth interview with Masakatsu Funaki:

Masa Funaki Interview (Part 1 of 2)

Proving Pro-Wrestlers Can Fight: The Masakatsu Funaki Interview Part One of Two: Behind the Scenes of the U.W.F., Fujiwara-Gumi, and SWS Organizations By William Colosimo | [email protected] Masakatsu (“Masa”) Funaki is the founder of the Pancrase organization, a mixed martial arts (MMA)...

themmacommunity.com

Masa Funaki Interview (Part 2 of 2)

Proving Pro-Wrestlers Can Fight: The Masakatsu Funaki Interview Part Two of Two: Behind the Scenes of Pancrase Hybrid Wrestling By William Colosimo | [email protected] William Colosimo: Ken Shamrock told me that while he was in Pancrase, there were eight people in the office that had more...

themmacommunity.com

 

[Kforcer]

I'm looking at his record and thinking Hume, Bas and Maurice Smith were better than any of the guys he fought in the UFC (before he fought Tito and Rich Franklin much later, I mean). Am I crazy?

Sounds right. Hume, Bas, Funaki, Suzuki, Yamada...though he did fight Severn, Taktarov and Kimo in the UFC.

 

[Bullitt68]

I'm looking at his record and thinking Hume, Bas and Maurice Smith were better than any of the guys he fought in the UFC (before he fought Tito and Rich Franklin much later, I mean). Am I crazy?

Hume was elite, for sure, but again, Ken didn't officially beat him as the fight was a work, although Ken most certainly would've beat Hume, especially at that early point in Hume's career. Bas for sure was one of the elite old schoolers, too, more so even than Hume. Bas is just one of the early GOATs. Maurice Smith really gets a lot of mileage out of gassing Coleman for a decision. He was an elite kickboxer, but from 1994-2000, his MMA record was 9-12 (he'd finish his career with a record of 12-14), and he never developed any TDD or grappling skill. I'd rank Royce, Severn, and Taktarov above Smith. Smith's one of the second-tier opponents Ken faced who were dangerous but not quite at the top level like Pat Smith, Christophe Leininger, and Brian Johnston.

 

[TheMaster]

For the record, you can keep responding to stuff that I post, but I'm sick of your shtick, so I'm no longer going to engage you in conversation.

I'm not really interested in your responses. We already know its going to be an endless attempt at massaging and glorifying Ken from every conceivable angle and in every way possible, including reinterpreting history as you wish. I only respond to you to correct and counter balance some of your more outlandish claims, such as the afformentioned Frank Shamrock statements.

Honestly I dont see alot of what you say as having a great reflection on reality, rather some kind of reflection of long lost father issues or something like that which you project into Ken.

I mean did you actually just call former UFC champion Maurice Smith a '2nd tier' fighter compared to "top level fighters like Christophe Leininger"? LMAO, you are really quite something. Of course, I realize Ken fought those guys so of course they are forever MMA Gods by default....to you.

As a longtime Ken fan though, quite possibly since before you, I do appreciate some of the interviews and lesser known details you sometimes bring about him and his career. So its all good.

 

[don't ask]

Please don't be offended if I liked a post where someone was arguing with you. My inner wadtucket had me liking every post and then it was too late to stop.

 

[Kforcer]

Please don't be offended if I liked a post where someone was arguing with you. My inner wadtucket had me liking every post and then it was too late to stop.

Anyone offended by something like that....is probably offended by your apology as well. But while you're at it, I've got some great posts in this thread that went unliked.

 

[don't ask]

Anyone offended by something like that....is probably offended by your apology as well. But while you're at it, I've got some great posts in this thread that went unliked.

lol true, but this forum isn't full of idiots like the UFC forum, I actually care if I upset people here without meaning to.

K, I just liked a bunch of posts, I'll get the rest as I go through this thread again for videos to watch.

 

[Kforcer]

lol true, but this forum isn't full of idiots like the UFC forum, I actually care if I upset people here without meaning to.

K, I just liked a bunch of posts, I'll get the rest as I go through this thread again for videos to watch.

I love you man. Any Sherdog beefs go down, I'm on your side.

 

[Deleted member 449757]

lol true, but this forum isn't full of idiots like the UFC forum, I actually care if I upset people here without meaning to.

Maybe it's just me but i get the impression nobody in the UFC forum knows or cares about any MMA fighter before 2010.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Anyone offended by something like that....is probably offended by your apology as well. But while you're at it, I've got some great posts in this thread that went unliked.

You deserve all the likes bro - just threw a bunch of them your way.

 

[Kforcer]

You deserve all the likes bro - just threw a bunch of them your way.

Hahaha, appreciate it brotha!

 

[TR1]

This thread is more interesting than 99% of posts in the Heavies.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Hahaha man, I still think it's crazy to think he could beat any of the guys Barnett beat when he was top of the heap in Pride or submitted Dean Lister in submission wrestling, but you guys are all giving Shamrock much more credit as a grappler than I am, which makes me think I need to learn more about him.

Frank is the Shamrock I saw as a grappling phenom, which is why I'm a huge fan of Frank. As a kid, I managed to get my hands on a few of Frank's rings fights, his SuperBrawl with John Lober, and his UFC run. Across all of this, the thing I saw Frank doing was growing as a grappler until he became unstoppable.

I never saw Ken as a grappler, but, except for his Bas match, I never saw him outside of the UFC and Pride. He submitted a lot of people in the UFC, but, except for Brian Johnston, I didn't think any of the people he submitted knew submissions, so I just never viewed him as a submission wiz. (Now I know Kimo became much more of a submission guy than I gave him credit for.)

I think I'm a bit biased, though, because of my background. The first school I was ever able to train at had a grappling program from Larry Hartsell, so, even though I went looking for BJJ, I found catchwrestling. A few years later, I joined a BJJ school and was getting my ass kicked by fundamentals, but, more than two decades later, I'm a BJJ and Judo guy that gravitates to catch moves. Because of this experience, when I look at those old Pancrase matches, I see guys that were very submission oriented, but very loose (even sloppy) with no concern for position, just like i was trained to be.

I still think Barnett beats him, but this thread has me fascinated and I really hope to soak up everything you guys see in regards to his skills.



Yeah, I'm super curious to learn what I can about the TK guard because my style looks much more like 1990s BJJ than 2024 BJJ. I'm the dude that still does guard work with my feet on your hips. If you push forward, I helicopter you. If you pull back, I come up and wrestle you. Actually, I'm excited to learn what I can about all these Pancrase dudes because their style was the first grappling I ever learned. When I think about my catch, BJJ and Judo journey, that's strikingly similar to TK (though maybe in a different order).

It sounds like TK guard is a closed guard with your legs open and your knees pulled back, so your feet are floating by their butt? I'm amazed that didn't get him leglocked by other Japanese catch guys.

Have been meaning to respond to this, and just wanted to say

As a base wrestler and judoka who is now a BJJ guy, I can relate. And can also relate to liking Frank's game more, though that's not meant to diminish Ken. Ken debuted much later (MMA debut at 29 vs 22 for Frank) and he spent much of his career in pro wrestling, which Frank did not. I also always had the sense that Ken relied more on brute strength than Frank did, which of course doesn't make it any less effective.

Well, hey, Funaki's innovations of what people now call K-guard didn't take the world by storm at the time and a lot of the grappling cognoscenti saw it as simply someone scrambling wildly for leglocks, no doubt. It took Sakuraba and Karo Parisyan for people to realize--and even then, very few--that the rolling DWL to short-arm scissor or armbar chain that Lou Thesz was always doing was not only legit, but absolutely brilliant. Same could be said for so much of what Ken did; when the accepted word was that he was a muscle-head whom the game had passed by, a lot of people basically became blind to the brilliance of much of his technique. It happens. Which is good for anyone willing to think outside the box and mine the discarded techniques of past eras in search of an edge on contemporary competitors.

There are certain sweeps and positions I associate with TK's guard, I'd have to hunt down video of them maybe and post them. One of them involves using a crossed legged guard as a means of reversal, which he used to do and which Uno did himself. I do agree that people generally used it as a catch-all for the guard he played though.

For the record, I've watched your Lou Thesz highlight link several times over the years and I've always liked his rolling DWL. I've often wanted to go for it from standing but since I mostly train with guard-pulling takedown surrender monkeys, the closest I usually get is hitting it from half-guard, as Daniel Puder famously almost completed on Kurt Angle 20 years ago on WWE Tough Enough in an unscripted shoot:



It's very effective and even if top guy passes fully into side control, you can still complete the sub or otherwise do the GSP sweep for a reversal into NS kimura.

Well, I think this is about as good a demonstration as you're going to find of Kohsaka's guard game. One defining trait was the way he would kick his feet up either into the opponent's armpits or to scissor his neck in order to regain position or possibly sweep, which is definitely something Frank Shamrock did, as I recall. I'm seeing a ton of half-butterfly work as well.

In full disclosure, I didn't fully understand what I was watching back then. But rather than a specific position, wasn't "TK guard" just an open-guard game based around wrestling scrambles from butterfly, half butterfly and knee shield half guard? Is the "cross-legged guard" you mentioned, what BJJ guys now call X guard?

Even though I'm now a "BJJ guy," my game is probably closer to catch and I really like X guard from butterfly if other guy stands up. From there, if I can't get a sweep, going to reverse single leg X from underhooking the near leg works amazingly well. I've only recently started doing this but it works even better than regular SLX. Like once you have the position, you're pretty much getting a kneebar/heelhook/straight ankle lock or at the very worst a sweep or escape. I'm only mentioning this because it totally feels like something Kohsaka (and catch guys from that era) would go for when scrambling under a standing opponent.

 

[don't ask]

Have been meaning to respond to this, and just wanted to say

As a base wrestler and judoka who is now a BJJ guy, I can relate. And can also relate to liking Frank's game more, though that's not meant to diminish Ken. Ken debuted much later (MMA debut at 29 vs 22 for Frank) and he spent much of his career in pro wrestling, which Frank did not. I also always had the sense that Ken relied more on brute strength than Frank did, which of course doesn't make it any less effective.

Ahahaha the brotherhood grows! Soon we'll be taking over...

For the record, I've watched your Lou Thesz highlight link several times over the years and I've always liked his rolling DWL. I've often wanted to go for it from standing but since I mostly train with guard-pulling surrender monkeys, the closest I usually get is hitting it from half-guard, as Daniel Puder famously did to Kurt Angle almost 20 years ago on WWE Tough Enough in an unscripted shoot:

@Kforcer can I get a link to that? I don't remember seeing it in this thread (but maybe I missed it, there was a lot to take in)

 

[Kforcer]

Ahahaha the brotherhood grows! Soon we'll be taking over...





@Kforcer can I get a link to that? I don't remember seeing it in this thread (but maybe I missed it, there was a lot to take in)

Here it is good sir.

 

[Kforcer]

Have been meaning to respond to this, and just wanted to say

As a base wrestler and judoka who is now a BJJ guy, I can relate. And can also relate to liking Frank's game more, though that's not meant to diminish Ken. Ken debuted much later (MMA debut at 29 vs 22 for Frank) and he spent much of his career in pro wrestling, which Frank did not. I also always had the sense that Ken relied more on brute strength than Frank did, which of course doesn't make it any less effective.



For the record, I've watched your Lou Thesz highlight link several times over the years and I've always liked his rolling DWL. I've often wanted to go for it from standing but since I mostly train with guard-pulling takedown surrender monkeys, the closest I usually get is hitting it from half-guard, as Daniel Puder famously almost completed on Kurt Angle 20 years ago on WWE Tough Enough in an unscripted shoot:



It's very effective and even if top guy passes fully into side control, you can still complete the sub or otherwise do the GSP sweep for a reversal into NS kimura.



In full disclosure, I didn't fully understand what I was watching back then. But rather than a specific position, wasn't "TK guard" just an open-guard game based around wrestling scrambles from butterfly, half butterfly and knee shield half guard? Is the "cross-legged guard" you mentioned, what BJJ guys now call X guard?

Even though I'm now a "BJJ guy," my game is probably closer to catch and I really like X guard from butterfly if other guy stands up. From there, if I can't get a sweep, going to reverse single leg X from underhooking the near leg works amazingly well. I've only recently started doing this but it works even better than regular SLX. Like once you have the position, you're pretty much getting a kneebar/heelhook/straight ankle lock or at the very worst a sweep or escape. I'm only mentioning this because it totally feels like something Kohsaka (and catch guys from that era) would go for when scrambling under a standing opponent.

What I was thinking of with TK isn't x-guard, though I can see how it would sound like that. I love x-guard myself; there was a dude I used to train with that would establish x-guard and just hang out there for as long as it took to get a sweep. X-guard is definitely one of my favorite weapons. Its funny, I used to do reverse-X all the time (I always underhooked the far leg and pulled on the near heel to effect a sweep or a tumble) and even though it lead directly to a leglock, people would generally be like, "Why you doing it upside down like that?" The whole x-guard game is awesome and its amazing how well it blends with a catch-style game and even more amazing how some people from those camps didn't pick up on the positional similarities or the potential synthesis between the two modes of attack.

As far as the TK attack I'm thinking of, I'm gonna have to hunt to find it. My library of footage is kinda scattered around now and my memory for which match had which thing isn't as good as it was. But if I locate what I'm thinking of, I'll definitely try to post it.