Ken vs barnett

[Kforcer]

The TK guard didn't take the world by storm - it didn't even enjoy half of the notoriety or influence as the rubber guard - but it's always cool seeing the evolution of MMA as new pieces were added to the fighting puzzle as guys tried to figure shit out.

Well, hey, Funaki's innovations of what people now call K-guard didn't take the world by storm at the time and a lot of the grappling cognoscenti saw it as simply someone scrambling wildly for leglocks, no doubt. It took Sakuraba and Karo Parisyan for people to realize--and even then, very few--that the rolling DWL to short-arm scissor or armbar chain that Lou Thesz was always doing was not only legit, but absolutely brilliant. Same could be said for so much of what Ken did; when the accepted word was that he was a muscle-head whom the game had passed by, a lot of people basically became blind to the brilliance of much of his technique. It happens. Which is good for anyone willing to think outside the box and mine the discarded techniques of past eras in search of an edge on contemporary competitors.

There are certain sweeps and positions I associate with TK's guard, I'd have to hunt down video of them maybe and post them. One of them involves using a crossed legged guard as a means of reversal, which he used to do and which Uno did himself. I do agree that people generally used it as a catch-all for the guard he played though.

 

[Kforcer]

At any rate, TK isn't getting enough respect in this thread.

He gets nothing but love from me, bro.

 

[don't ask]

Hahaha man, I still think it's crazy to think he could beat any of the guys Barnett beat when he was top of the heap in Pride or submitted Dean Lister in submission wrestling, but you guys are all giving Shamrock much more credit as a grappler than I am, which makes me think I need to learn more about him.

Frank is the Shamrock I saw as a grappling phenom, which is why I'm a huge fan of Frank. As a kid, I managed to get my hands on a few of Frank's rings fights, his SuperBrawl with John Lober, and his UFC run. Across all of this, the thing I saw Frank doing was growing as a grappler until he became unstoppable.

I never saw Ken as a grappler, but, except for his Bas match, I never saw him outside of the UFC and Pride. He submitted a lot of people in the UFC, but, except for Brian Johnston, I didn't think any of the people he submitted knew submissions, so I just never viewed him as a submission wiz. (Now I know Kimo became much more of a submission guy than I gave him credit for.)

I think I'm a bit biased, though, because of my background. The first school I was ever able to train at had a grappling program from Larry Hartsell, so, even though I went looking for BJJ, I found catchwrestling. A few years later, I joined a BJJ school and was getting my ass kicked by fundamentals, but, more than two decades later, I'm a BJJ and Judo guy that gravitates to catch moves. Because of this experience, when I look at those old Pancrase matches, I see guys that were very submission oriented, but very loose (even sloppy) with no concern for position, just like i was trained to be.

I still think Barnett beats him, but this thread has me fascinated and I really hope to soak up everything you guys see in regards to his skills.

Williams really shit the bed against TK. He made the most out of that Coleman bout, but against TK and Randleman, when he could've leveled up, he failed. As for TK, @Kforcer could give you a much more detailed answer, but basically, the TK guard is an early version of an open guard. (Some people call it a butterfly guard prototype, but that's not quite right as his feet were outside, not inside. Maybe the confusion is because he would also sometimes play butterfly guard.) He played an open guard when most everyone thought that you could only be safe defensively and effective offensively from the closed guard. (He was also good in the half guard at wrapping the leg up, often even triangling it before many people were doing that.) You have to remember, people were blown away by the closed guard and then we started to see even strikers wrap their legs around people when they'd get taken down. The TK guard didn't take the world by storm - it didn't even enjoy half of the notoriety or influence as the rubber guard - but it's always cool seeing the evolution of MMA as new pieces were added to the fighting puzzle as guys tried to figure shit out.

Yeah, I'm super curious to learn what I can about the TK guard because my style looks much more like 1990s BJJ than 2024 BJJ. I'm the dude that still does guard work with my feet on your hips. If you push forward, I helicopter you. If you pull back, I come up and wrestle you. Actually, I'm excited to learn what I can about all these Pancrase dudes because their style was the first grappling I ever learned. When I think about my catch, BJJ and Judo journey, that's strikingly similar to TK (though maybe in a different order).

It sounds like TK guard is a closed guard with your legs open and your knees pulled back, so your feet are floating by their butt? I'm amazed that didn't get him leglocked by other Japanese catch guys.

 

[don't ask]

Well, hey, Funaki's innovations of what people now call K-guard didn't take the world by storm at the time and a lot of the grappling cognoscenti saw it as simply someone scrambling wildly for leglocks, no doubt. It took Sakuraba and Karo Parisyan for people to realize--and even then, very few--that the rolling DWL to short-arm scissor or armbar chain that Lou Thesz was always doing was not only legit, but absolutely brilliant. Same could be said for so much of what Ken did; when the accepted word was that he was a muscle-head whom the game had passed by, a lot of people basically became blind to the brilliance of much of his technique. It happens. Which is good for anyone willing to think outside the box and mine the discarded techniques of past eras in search of an edge on contemporary competitors.

There are certain sweeps and positions I associate with TK's guard, I'd have to hunt down video of them maybe and post them. One of them involves using a crossed legged guard as a means of reversal, which he used to do and which Uno did himself. I do agree that people generally used it as a catch-all for the guard he played though.

I am very interested in anything you guys can post on the subject. I've managed to scoop up a few Japanese catch instructionals over the years and have always added key things to my game from them.

 

[Kforcer]

Hahaha man, I still think it's crazy to think he could beat any of the guys Barnett beat when he was top of the heap in Pride or submitted Dean Lister in submission wrestling, but you guys are all giving Shamrock much more credit as a grappler than I am, which makes me think I need to learn more about him.

Frank is the Shamrock I saw as a grappling phenom, which is why I'm a huge fan of Frank. As a kid, I managed to get my hands on a few of Frank's rings fights, his SuperBrawl with John Lober, and his UFC run. Across all of this, the thing I saw Frank doing was growing as a grappler until he became unstoppable.

I never saw Ken as a grappler, but, except for his Bas match, I never saw him outside of the UFC and Pride. He submitted a lot of people in the UFC, but, except for Brian Johnston, I didn't think any of the people he submitted knew submissions, so I just never viewed him as a submission wiz. (Now I know Kimo became much more of a submission guy than I gave him credit for.)

I think I'm a bit biased, though, because of my background. The first school I was ever able to train at had a grappling program from Larry Hartsell, so, even though I went looking for BJJ, I found catchwrestling. A few years later, I joined a BJJ school and was getting my ass kicked by fundamentals, but, more than two decades later, I'm a BJJ and Judo guy that gravitates to catch moves. Because of this experience, when I look at those old Pancrase matches, I see guys that were very submission oriented, but very loose (even sloppy) with no concern for position, just like i was trained to be.

I still think Barnett beats him, but this thread has me fascinated and I really hope to soak up everything you guys see in regards to his skills.



Yeah, I'm super curious to learn what I can about the TK guard because my style looks much more like 1990s BJJ than 2024 BJJ. I'm the dude that still does guard work with my feet on your hips. If you push forward, I helicopter you. If you pull back, I come up and wrestle you. Actually, I'm excited to learn what I can about all these Pancrase dudes because their style was the first grappling I ever learned. When I think about my catch, BJJ and Judo journey, that's strikingly similar to TK (though maybe in a different order).

It sounds like TK guard is a closed guard with your legs open and your knees pulled back, so your feet are floating by their butt? I'm amazed that didn't get him leglocked by other Japanese catch guys.

I probably didn't explain the particular position I was thinking of super-well. I'm going to dig and see if I can find what I was talking about in specific examples. One thing I will say briefly about studying grappling, is that I think it is okay to look at it with a critical eye and not be afraid to see things that you don't want to replicate but what I think can be hard for some people is to be able to also isolate the elements in a game that are worth emulating. In other words, be ready to cast aside what doesn't work, but also be ready to look closer and see what was worth preserving, which sometimes can actually take a little more study. A guy might have beautiful and effective transitions, for example, but not the best finishes, so feel free to cannibalize the transition and adjust the finish.

 

[don't ask]

I probably didn't explain the particular position I was thinking of super-well. I'm going to dig and see if I can find what I was talking about in specific examples. One thing I will say briefly about studying grappling, is that I think it is okay to look at it with a critical eye and not be afraid to see things that you don't want to replicate but what I think can be hard for some people is to be able to also isolate the elements in a game that are worth emulating. In other words, be ready to cast aside what doesn't work, but also be ready to look closer and see what was worth preserving, which sometimes can actually take a little more study. A guy might have beautiful and effective transitions, for example, but not the best finishes, so feel free to cannibalize the transition and adjust the finish.

lol I suck at transitions. I've never looked at them as an opportunity to attack or take control, but as a failure to smesh.

This thread has me super interested in all this old catch stuff. That TK highlight I posted had some fantastic stuff that I'm going to be going over with a keen eye. Same thing for all the old Pancrase stuff with Ken, Funaki and Suzuki.

I just found these videos, which I'll watch tonight because they look very promising. Funaki vs Suzuki:



And an Rickson vs Funaki match that I don't ever remember happening lol



Here's Rickson's breakdown of it:

 

[Bullitt68]

I'll post more later, but @don't ask: That Funaki/Suzuki match was a work, not a real fight. That's one of the few Pancrase works that are widely known, a throwback to their pro-wrestling days.

 

[Kforcer]

I'll post more later, but @don't ask: That Funaki/Suzuki match was a work, not a real fight. That's one of the few Pancrase works that are widely known, a throwback to their pro-wrestling days.

I don't agree that it was a work. I think they started out with some flashy stuff and then got down to business.

 

[Kforcer]

lol I suck at transitions. I've never looked at them as an opportunity to attack or take control, but as a failure to smesh.

This thread has me super interested in all this old catch stuff. That TK highlight I posted had some fantastic stuff that I'm going to be going over with a keen eye. Same thing for all the old Pancrase stuff with Ken, Funaki and Suzuki.

I just found these videos, which I'll watch tonight because they look very promising. Funaki vs Suzuki:



And an Rickson vs Funaki match that I don't ever remember happening lol



Here's Rickson's breakdown of it:

I think you'd dig this Funaki highlight I made. Its on a computer that I currently can't even remember the password to, but I might be able to find it elsewhere.

 

[Kforcer]

Well, I think this is about as good a demonstration as you're going to find of Kohsaka's guard game. One defining trait was the way he would kick his feet up either into the opponent's armpits or to scissor his neck in order to regain position or possibly sweep, which is definitely something Frank Shamrock did, as I recall. I'm seeing a ton of half-butterfly work as well.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I don't agree that it was a work. I think they started out with some flashy stuff and then got down to business.

This has also always been my impression of it, because after the first sequence, there was this very clear restart from the feet before it turned into a proper fight like they wanted to make sure neither had an advantage after the worked part.

 

[don't ask]

Well, I think this is about as good a demonstration as you're going to find of Kohsaka's guard game. One defining trait was the way he would kick his feet up either into the opponent's armpits or to scissor his neck in order to regain position or possibly sweep, which is definitely something Frank Shamrock did, as I recall. I'm seeing a ton of half-butterfly work as well.

Thanks for posting that! I think that the TK guard wasn't a distinct position that he worked out of, like I was expecting, but a style of legwork that really wasn't common in MMA at the time. In all his matches, I'm seeing a lot of half-guard and work with at least one butterfly hook. There was some butterfly knee shield in there, as well.

 

[Kforcer]

This has also always been my impression of it, because after the first sequence, there was this very clear restart from the feet before it turned into a proper fight like they wanted to make sure neither had an advantage after the worked part.

I'm 100% with you. I also think a work between them would be way longer and have tons of epic exchanges. Those guys, if they decided to work together for the sake of entertaining a crowd, could arguably do that as well or better than anyone else in shoot-style history.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I'm 100% with you. I also think a work between them would be way longer and have tons of epic exchanges. Those guys, if they decided to work together for the sake of entertaining a crowd, could arguably do that as well or better than anyone else in shoot-style history.

It would look like the Tamura vs. Sakuraba matches in UWFi

 

[Kforcer]

It would look like the Tamura vs. Sakuraba matches in UWFi

Yep, for sure...and man, I gotta say, I would've loved to see that. We never really got to seem them go at it in shoot-style at the peak of their powers.

 

[Bullitt68]

Hahaha man, I still think it's crazy to think he could beat any of the guys Barnett beat when he was top of the heap in Pride or submitted Dean Lister in submission wrestling, but you guys are all giving Shamrock much more credit as a grappler than I am, which makes me think I need to learn more about him.

Speaking for myself, I'm entertaining the possibility that, in a grappling match, Ken could outwrestle and control Josh on the one hand and nullify/avoid his submissions on the other. I don't know if Ken would've been able to submit him, but he was very fast, very powerful, and had great technique, so it's not out of the realm of possibility for me. In an MMA context, Josh's superior striking would give him a more significant advantage and he'd make Ken's life very difficult. In MMA, Josh was always so active and effective off of his back with strikes, sweeps, and scrambles, and if he ended up on top of Ken the way that he reversed Couture, Ken'd be in more trouble than vice-versa. Not to mention, Josh made Couture work very hard and take a lot of elbows and knees even to get him to the ground. I'm not claiming that Ken would walk through Josh. The point is that asking who'd win, Ken vs Josh, isn't on the same level of absurdity as asking who'd win, Keith Hackney vs Josh. Ken had incredible physical and technical tools and in his prime he wouldn't be an easy win for Josh. It's a modest claim but considering how little people know about Ken, I understand that it seems crazy

Frank is the Shamrock I saw as a grappling phenom, which is why I'm a huge fan of Frank. As a kid, I managed to get my hands on a few of Frank's rings fights, his SuperBrawl with John Lober, and his UFC run. Across all of this, the thing I saw Frank doing was growing as a grappler until he became unstoppable.

Frank has endless stories of Ken mauling him and everyone else at the Lion's Den (as does every individual member). Ken was the alpha dog. Stronger and slicker than everybody, Frank included. In fact, Frank owes more to Ken than he does to Maurice Smith and TK combined. Ken taught him the skills and toughened him up. Frank was prone to gassing and mentally checking out, so Ken would stay on him and he molded Frank into the beastly competitor that he was. One of the best examples of cornering in MMA history is Ken literally willing Frank to fight to the bell in Frank's all-out war against Allan Goes in Pancrase, a Pancrase classic and just one of the best fights of all-time in my book.



With Pancrase rules at the time, with the rope escapes and no judges, if neither fighter lost any points or if they lost the same number of points, the fight was declared a draw. Each man submitted the other once and forced rope escapes, so the fight was declared a draw. But Frank was fighting for his life against Goes, who was using GNP - which nobody did in those days - and top-notch BJJ. And without Ken in the corner, shouting out instructions and willing his body to execute everything that they trained at the Lion's Den, Frank loses that fight.

I never saw Ken as a grappler, but, except for his Bas match, I never saw him outside of the UFC and Pride. He submitted a lot of people in the UFC, but, except for Brian Johnston, I didn't think any of the people he submitted knew submissions, so I just never viewed him as a submission wiz. (Now I know Kimo became much more of a submission guy than I gave him credit for.)

Oh, dude, Ken was the submission wiz back in the day. Royce taught everyone about the guard and schooled folks on BJJ, but Ken was the catch wrestling king, hooking leg locks and snatching arm triangles in Pancrase like nobody's business, on top of his submission wins in the UFC. If you watch his Pancrase fights, all of which are on Fight Pass and probably YouTube as well, I think that you'll gain a whole new appreciation of his grappling.

The first school I was ever able to train at had a grappling program from Larry Hartsell

Cool, the JKD guy

when I look at those old Pancrase matches, I see guys that were very submission oriented, but very loose (even sloppy) with no concern for position, just like i was trained to be.

Haha, yep. I got a lot of my friends into MMA, and four of us got into it enough to do BJJ (and later MT) together. I'll never forget when we were all at my house one day and I showed them some old school Pancrase. One of my friends, who hadn't seen as much MMA, had no idea what it was, and he literally couldn't fathom what he was witnessing. No guard, just mount, side mount, and leg locks! He'd watch guys move on top and wonder WTF the guy on the bottom was doing. All he knew was BJJ and he couldn't comprehend not immediately looking for at least half-guard if not full guard

I'm excited to learn what I can about all these Pancrase dudes

Ken was the champ (literally the King of Pancrase), Funaki and Suzuki were his teachers and the two who created Pancrase, Frank was interim champ, Bas Rutten of course preferred striking on the feet even with open palms but he had to learn submissions to survive and his idionsyncratic grappling was effective and fun to watch, and then my favorite "dark horse" has always been Manabu Yamada.

It sounds like TK guard is a closed guard with your legs open and your knees pulled back, so your feet are floating by their butt? I'm amazed that didn't get him leglocked by other Japanese catch guys.

Yeah, pretty much. But TK was a leg locker himself, so he knew the deal. He also benefited (for his guard work and for moving on the ground in general) from being extremely flexible. He'd get leg lock entries while mounted. He'd swing his legs up, hook your leg(s) from the bottom, and create space to escape the mount and wrap up one of your legs. It was an effective escape and a great way to get to the legs. Here he is using it on Kimo:



I used that move myself a bunch in my short-lived grappling life, though I'd have to pick a side and really bend to get my leg over, as I wasn't as flexible as TK

And an Rickson vs Funaki match that I don't ever remember happening lol

That one's unfortunate because Rickson waited for Funaki to retire after his body was shot from all the pro-wrestling and fighting, his knee was busted, he called it a career...and then Rickson called him out. Rickson could've fought in Pancrase at any time in the '90s. He could've called Funaki out at any point between 1993-1997. But no. Rickson waited until Funaki was shot. And even still, he couldn't take Funaki down, bitched about special rules all the way up to fight night and then opened by kneeing Funaki in the balls. Rickson is a disgraceful competitor and that fight is quite pathetic, not least because Bas Rutten was the reigning and defending King of Pancrase and he was calling Rickson out at the same time that Sakuraba was beating up his entire family, yet Rickson picks on a pro wrestler with no experience and no skills in Takada and an injured and retired former champ in Funaki. Real chickenshit.

I don't agree that it was a work. I think they started out with some flashy stuff and then got down to business.

This has also always been my impression of it, because after the first sequence, there was this very clear restart from the feet before it turned into a proper fight like they wanted to make sure neither had an advantage after the worked part.

I'm not going to pretend that it wouldn't still be bad if it was only half worked, but please give me a timestamp for when you think it becomes legit. Because I'm seeing the excellent wrestler Suzuki act terribly as he pretends to struggle - and then fails miserably - to execute an embarrassingly and uncharacteristically lame body lock TD before getting submitted almost immediately thereafter by literally giving up his back and not moving at all...absolutely none of which is plausible to me. It's not as hilariously obvious and over-the-top as Ken's Northern Lights Suplex-to-Kimura finish on Matt Hume, but it's close

 

[don't ask]

Speaking for myself, I'm entertaining the possibility that, in a grappling match, Ken could outwrestle and control Josh on the one hand and nullify/avoid his submissions on the other. I don't know if Ken would've been able to submit him, but he was very fast, very powerful, and had great technique, so it's not out of the realm of possibility for me. In an MMA context, Josh's superior striking would give him a more significant advantage and he'd make Ken's life very difficult. In MMA, Josh was always so active and effective off of his back with strikes, sweeps, and scrambles, and if he ended up on top of Ken the way that he reversed Couture, Ken'd be in more trouble than vice-versa. Not to mention, Josh made Couture work very hard and take a lot of elbows and knees even to get him to the ground. I'm not claiming that Ken would walk through Josh. The point is that asking who'd win, Ken vs Josh, isn't on the same level of absurdity as asking who'd win, Keith Hackney vs Josh. Ken had incredible physical and technical tools and in his prime he wouldn't be an easy win for Josh. It's a modest claim but considering how little people know about Ken, I understand that it seems crazy

The more I think about it, the more I think that the reason I never considered Ken a wrestler is because he was so well-rounded that he never fought like other wrestlers at the time (Severn, Beneteau, Frye, Coleman, etd.) and I just didn't know what a well-rounded wrestler would fight like. Looking back, having the benefit of seeing the well-rounded grapplers that came later (Fedor, Sakuraba, Randy, Rampage, etc.) I can see that Ken was far ahead of his time (more than I ever gave him credit for -- and I already gave him some credit for that lol).

Frank has endless stories of Ken mauling him and everyone else at the Lion's Den (as does every individual member). Ken was the alpha dog. Stronger and slicker than everybody, Frank included. In fact, Frank owes more to Ken than he does to Maurice Smith and TK combined. Ken taught him the skills and toughened him up. Frank was prone to gassing and mentally checking out, so Ken would stay on him and he molded Frank into the beastly competitor that he was. One of the best examples of cornering in MMA history is Ken literally willing Frank to fight to the bell in Frank's all-out war against Allan Goes in Pancrase, a Pancrase classic and just one of the best fights of all-time in my book.



With Pancrase rules at the time, with the rope escapes and no judges, if neither fighter lost any points or if they lost the same number of points, the fight was declared a draw. Each man submitted the other once and forced rope escapes, so the fight was declared a draw. But Frank was fighting for his life against Goes, who was using GNP - which nobody did in those days - and top-notch BJJ. And without Ken in the corner, shouting out instructions and willing his body to execute everything that they trained at the Lion's Den, Frank loses that fight.

That was a great match -- it's crazy that no one had figured out GNP yet lol. What did Goes get the yellow card for? Not letting go of the choke in time?

Also, I'm guessing Frank was a total noob at this point in his career. How much experience did Goes have? I suspect he had a lot more, which makes this performance by Frank extraordinary.

 

[Patrick Jane]

It's not as hilariously obvious and over-the-top as Ken's Northern Lights Suplex-to-Kimura finish on Matt Hume, but it's close

I thought this one was officially billed as an exhibition match? Does anybody here have further info or am i misremembering something? Maybe @Mbetz1981 knows more about that match?

 

[Bullitt68]

The more I think about it, the more I think that the reason I never considered Ken a wrestler is because he was so well-rounded that he never fought like other wrestlers at the time (Severn, Beneteau, Frye, Coleman, etd.) and I just didn't know what a well-rounded wrestler would fight like. Looking back, having the benefit of seeing the well-rounded grapplers that came later (Fedor, Sakuraba, Randy, Rampage, etc.) I can see that Ken was far ahead of his time (more than I ever gave him credit for -- and I already gave him some credit for that lol).

Yep. When I watch some of Ken's early fights, I can see the blueprint for the modern mixed martial artist. The opening sequence of the Bas rematch, where he counters an inside low kick with an overhand right and then ducks the incoming straight-right to change levels for a double, it's like Ken was the beta version of GSP. That opening sequence in Ken/Bas II always reminds me of GSP/Alves when GSP blocks the high kick, fires a counter one-two, then changes levels and ducks under the response fire for the double.





It's also impressive that in Ken's fights against Bas and Maurice Smith, the two most accomplished and dangerous strikers he fought, not only did they never land anything even remotely significant on him, but HE outstruck THEM and landed some hard shots on them both. He knew that his wrestling gave him an advantage, and he used their fear of the TD and their concentration on his wrestling to throw strikes, which then took their mind off the TD and made it even easier for him to use his wrestling. That's MMA 101. He was well-rounded and he used his skills brilliantly to make defeating both look easy.

That was a great match -- it's crazy that no one had figured out GNP yet lol.

To be clear, it's not that they hadn't "figured out" that they could or how to GNP, it's that in Pancrase, which was created before the term "mixed martial arts" even existed and which was called "hybrid wrestling," the "gentleman's agreement" was to strike on the feet and grapple on the ground. There wasn't a rule against using palms strikes on the ground, it just wasn't done. Goes, meanwhile, comes into this new weird org, hears that there's no rule against it, and just opens by smashing Frank's face

Frank would learn from the experience, though. He used some GNP on Bas in their third fight and he absolutely pulverized Manabu Yamada in their second fight.

What did Goes get the yellow card for? Not letting go of the choke in time?

Yep. The rules were strange to him, so he was waiting for the tap and then all of a sudden the ref is trying to stop him from getting the tap and winning...took him a second to snap out of Kill mode and let go. It happens with those rope escapes: You might not see the guy reaching out with his hand or kicking back his foot to touch the ropes, so you either don't know you're supposed to let go or you let go thinking you've won. Both happened to Ken. In Ken's first fight against Yoshiki Takahashi, he choked him unconscious with an arm-triangle but didn't know that Takahashi had gotten to the ropes. The ref gave him a red card for that one. Then in Ken/Bas I, Ken locked up a nice RNC, the ref stepped in, Ken celebrated his victory, and then he saw that Bas had his foot on the rope and realized that he wasn't done yet

Also, I'm guessing Frank was a total noob at this point in his career. How much experience did Goes have? I suspect he had a lot more, which makes this performance by Frank extraordinary.

Not a total noob, but still green. Goes was green, too, all things considered. Goes was a very experienced and successful BJJ competitor, but he'd never fought any form of MMA. The fight with Frank was his MMA debut. Frank, on the other had, had only been competing in any form for six months and was 3-2 in Pancrase. Goes was more experienced in competition, Frank was more experienced in Pancrase, but both were relatively green. That's part of what made the fight so fun: Two young guns hungry to win

I thought this one was officially billed as an exhibition match? Does anybody here have further info or am i misremembering something? Maybe @Mbetz1981 knows more about that match?

This is the problem with Pancrase: Absolutely nothing is "official" about the works. It's all hearsay, it's all second- or third-hand info, plenty of people make up BS about people they don't like - one guy, not sure if he was a Lion's Den guy or not, claimed that Frank's entire career was all worked victories! - and nothing is archived anywhere for easy reference. Even I'm just going off of memory and shit that I've accrued in the last 20 years. The only thing that's corroborated by absolutely everyone is that every decision was made by Funaki and Suzuki and it went only as far from them as Ken. Funaki and Suzuki were in charge and Ken was their protégé and champ. Anyone else who talks like an authority is lying. And the only info that's trickled out over the years that I recall is as follows:

1) There were absolutely no works, no carrying, no nothing for that first show. That was their debut as a real fight org and they wanted to really fight. That's why the entire card had only 15 minutes of fighting and the entire show beginning to end with all entrances and resets lasted 57 minutes. That worried the pro-wrestling showmen, they didn't want fans to feel like they didn't get a full show experience or get their money's worth, so that planted the seed for maybe incorporating some pro-wrestling elements like carrying or working.

2) There were absolutely no works, no carrying, no nothing for the King of Pancrase tournament. That was the culmination of their efforts at making a legit combat sport org. Though there was some rope escape shenanigans to help Suzuki edge Matt Hume on points and move on in the tournament

3) The fights that I've seen most often listed and most plausibly explained to be works are Ken's victory over Matt Hume (Hume was hurt and didn't want to fight Ken at a disadvantage, but he also didn't want to have the entire match canceled, so he agreed to just do a work with Ken), Ken's loss to Funaki in their second fight (Ken was fighting in UFC 3 a week later, plus Funaki had just accidentally lost to Ken's new Lion's Den protégé and debuting Pancrase fighter Jason Delucia, so this sort of squared things moving on in the "Road to the Championship" series of events heading into the King of Pancrase tournament), Ken's loss to Suzuki in their second fight (Pancrase hated Ken competing in the UFC while he was the Pancrase champ, and they wanted him to intentionally lose and give up the title before his UFC 5 Superfight with Royce but Ken refused to lose to Bas who he'd already beat, but then when they kept hounding him ahead of his UFC 6 Superfight with Severn, he said fuck it, gave his title up to Suzuki, and focused on being UFC champ), and Funaki/Suzuki (they started Pancrase together, and while they wanted to be the best, they also wanted to focus on building the org together rather than fight each other, so they gave the fans a show and did a pro-wrestling throwback).

As an academic, though, it drives me nuts that I can't cite any sources, that I don't have verifiable proof that I can provide for corroboration. The Japanese culture of secrecy really fucks things up. I wish someone would write a book and get the full scoop, get on the record interviews with everyone and get all the stories and info. But alas, this is just the shit that I've heard most often and most believably.

 

[don't ask]

Yep. When I watch some of Ken's early fights, I can see the blueprint for the modern mixed martial artist. The opening sequence of the Bas rematch, where he counters an inside low kick with an overhand right and then ducks the incoming straight-right to change levels for a double, it's like Ken was the beta version of GSP. That opening sequence in Ken/Bas II always reminds me of GSP/Alves when GSP blocks the high kick, fires a counter one-two, then changes levels and ducks under the response fire for the double.





It's also impressive that in Ken's fights against Bas and Maurice Smith, the two most accomplished and dangerous strikers he fought, not only did they never land anything even remotely significant on him, but HE outstruck THEM and landed some hard shots on them both. He knew that his wrestling gave him an advantage, and he used their fear of the TD and their concentration on his wrestling to throw strikes, which then took their mind off the TD and made it even easier for him to use his wrestling. That's MMA 101. He was well-rounded and he used his skills brilliantly to make defeating both look easy.

Well, this thread definitely gave me a new appreciation for Ken. It sounds like he was fighting a higher quality of fighters in Pancrase than he was in the UFC. I really wish he would have fought some of the other big names, like Coleman, Couture, Kerr, Vitor, Tank, Ruas, etc. I'm for sure going to check out more of his career.