Ken vs barnett

[Bullitt68]

Barnett is not an absolutely top level wrestler I'd agree but realistically fights in Pancrase takedown defence was not a strong consideration, a significantly different MMA were ground position was not viewed as a negative nearly as much. I see that being the closest aspect of a fight between them but the difference being I think Barnett ontop is much more likely to lead to a finish and indeed he's more likely to be able to escape from the bottom.

Maurice Smith, who was underneath both Mark Coleman and Kevin Randleman, said that Ken was the strongest guy he was ever on the mat with. He likened his top game to an anaconda squeezing you. Barnett is big and he has lots of tools to work off of his back, but dealing with Ken on top would be no picnic. At UFC 9, Ken was on top of Severn for about five minutes, while he got out from under Severn in one minute and wasn't fazed by his GNP. Ken in his prime was tough as nails, very fast, and very slick from any position, and you're really underestimating his wrestling pedigree and his strength.

Again for me this is a significant shift up in levels, yeah theres a a lot of bullshit talk about "evolution" in modern MMA to sell UFC product but the shift between the mid 90's and the early 00's was very significant, I'd say Barnett has at least half a dozen wins better than Kens best win, maybe more(although granted I think Semmy and Hunt Ken may have had a shot against).

Ken would've done to Hunt exactly what Barnett did, a two-second TD and a submission. And Schilt lost a bunch of times to smaller and slicker guys like Kondo and Funaki. All you're giving Ken is he "may had had a shot" against them? Again, I think you're seriously underestimating Ken.

 

[moreorless87]

Ken would've done to Hunt exactly what Barnett did, a two-second TD and a submission. And Schilt lost a bunch of times to smaller and slicker guys like Kondo and Funaki. All you're giving Ken is he "may had had a shot" against them? Again, I think you're seriously underestimating Ken.

I'd say a "decent shot" but I'd still pick Hunt and Semmy(the Pride era Semmy not the early Pancrase version with limited grappling) to beat him. Standing he would be badly outmatched in both those matches to the degree I don't think he could survive any lenght of time. Grappling he'd have had a chance but no I would not bet on him getting a win the way Barnett did vs Hunt, to be fair even Josh probably fought his ideal match.

Granted he was a bit older(but in far better shape than Ken) but I think TK in Pride revealed the difference in levels, from someone who was high level in the mid 90's and how they stacked up in the mid 00's. Part of the reason the UFC have gotten away with "evolution" hype for so long is that there was a period when it was actually happening very rapidly.

 

[Bullitt68]

I'd say a "decent shot" but I'd still pick Hunt and Semmy(the Pride era Semmy not the early Pancrase version with limited grappling) to beat him. Standing he would be badly outmatched in both those matches to the degree I don't think he could survive any lenght of time. Grappling he'd have had a chance but no I would not bet on him getting a win the way Barnett did vs Hunt, to be fair even Josh probably fought his ideal match.

Come on, man. This is insane. Barnett wasn't "badly outmatched" standing in front of K-1 champions? Ken would've done the same as Barnett and he'd have had the same success, especially since he had better TDs. Barnett took Schilt down in two seconds and tapped him in a round in their UFC fight, and then in their rematch he again scored every TD that he attempted. And let's not forget how easily and viciously Sergei Kharitonov mauled Schilt. As for Hunt, give me a fucking break, man. Ken would do exactly what Barnett did, except maybe he would've gone for a choke instead of an arm lock.

Granted he was a bit older(but in far better shape than Ken) but I think TK in Pride revealed the difference in levels, from someone who was high level in the mid 90's and how they stacked up in the mid 00's.

Come on, man. Not only was TK old and weathered fighting Hunt literally in his retirement match, but he was smaller than Ken, weaker than Ken, and had worse wrestling than Ken. (He was a judoka, whereas Ken competed in the fucking Olympic trials, which is to say: TK had no wrestling and Ken had great wrestling).

Again, in MMA I'd give the edge to Barnett while in grappling it'd be very close, but you're talking nonsense here. Ken wasn't Fedor in his prime, but he's not fucking TK.

 

[Kforcer]

Come on, man. This is insane. Barnett wasn't "badly outmatched" standing in front of K-1 champions? Ken would've done the same as Barnett and he'd have had the same success, especially since he had better TDs. Barnett took Schilt down in two seconds and tapped him in a round in their UFC fight, and then in their rematch he again scored every TD that he attempted. And let's not forget how easily and viciously Sergei Kharitonov mauled Schilt. As for Hunt, give me a fucking break, man. Ken would do exactly what Barnett did, except maybe he would've gone for a choke instead of an arm lock.



Come on, man. Not only was TK old and weathered fighting Hunt literally in his retirement match, but he was smaller than Ken, weaker than Ken, and had worse wrestling than Ken. (He was a judoka, whereas Ken competed in the fucking Olympic trials, which is to say: TK had no wrestling and Ken had great wrestling).

Again, in MMA I'd give the edge to Barnett while in grappling it'd be very close, but you're talking nonsense here. Ken wasn't Fedor in his prime, but he's not fucking TK.

To give TK credit, I think he was brilliant and innovative in many ways. The TK guard is something that's still effective today; not widely used like the F-guard/K-guard but Uno used it effectively in DREAM--granted that's a while ago--and its really a great, versatile concept. He's not explosive, but he was very smooth and slick and also extremely tough. I think you can make an argument for him deserving the win against Nogueira too, for whatever its worth. I'm just saying, don't downplay the man. He spent so much of his career in RINGs, his best years really, its hard to fully place him, but I think he's well deserving of his accolades.

What I'm saying, to quote the young kids is: don't be hating on my boy.

 

[ChickenBrother]

You know a funny thing, is looking at Yoshiki Takahashi, you wonder--or I wonder--if, with his wrestling background, he wouldn't have been better off for less of Japanese catch-style approach and something more akin to a BJJ top-game or the contemporary American style of taking people down and exploiting the top position for as long as you could. He had some beautiful submission transitions but I think he could've gotten more mileage out of a style design to take more advantage of his ability to get on top of people.

Back to Ken's case, I feel he actually did show a pretty good guard on a lot of occasions; in fact, again, he basically stole credit from Funaki with the K-guard, with Neil Melanson referring to Ken's successful use of it rather than the man who innovated it and used it way more often. He was more stationary off his back in the UFC than he was in Pancrase, but in both organizations, I think he showed a man who is more mobile and versatile off his back than he's often credited as being. I think Ken's legacy and the perception of his abilities will always inevitably suffer due ot his largely disastrous post-Tito MMA career, but he was a very special grappler in a lot of respects. Definitely not a lot of people that can move like could. I think there are a lot of variables when considering a Ken-Barnett prime to prime bout that are just tough to answer honestly, as is often the case in generation vs generation bouts. A big question, I think, is how the wrestling goes and who gets on top of who.

It is indeed a great shame that Ken's most famous and widely seen phase was post WWF. The excitement he brought though coming back was unmatched. I remember Rogan literally trembling with excitement in anticipation of the first Tito fight, there are few bouts that match that for anticipation.
His grappling legacy can also be seen in the fact that he trained Frank Shamrock.



This is a big if, and I believe Ken has shown superior standing grappling in his prime. More athletic, more powerful and stronger despite giving away some size, and a better amateur calibre and did better against elite freestyle/Greco wrestlers in MMA. So we can say he would have most likely not ended up on the bottom against Barnett.

As a long time fan of both guys, I honestly don't know who takes it prime vs. prime. But I agree with consensus that it's debatable either way. Haven't thought about it in years, but 40 yo Ken beating Kimo in 2004 was impressive as hell. Kimo was 7-1-1 since his 1996 loss to Ken with a sub win over Saku (in his MMA debut right before his UFC debut 6 months later vs. Silveira), with the loss to TK and the draw vs. MFing Dan Severn. Like someone else said, Ken should have retired after that fight and rode into the sunset after a legendary career.

Better wrestler? Based on what? An older Severn took him down every time save the last attempt, with Severn going for a low single, rolling onto his back, and then it was RNC city shortly thereafter. But an older Severn outwrestled Barnett while a younger Severn had literally nothing for Ken. And let's not forget that Ken competed in and won two matches in the 1988 Olympic trials. Even against Takahashi, one of the best wrestlers he ever competed against, Ken was so far ahead of him - they also trained together all the time, so Ken knew how far ahead of him he was - that he didn't really even bother stopping the shots because he knew he'd reverse him immediately on the ground. Look at the effortless reversal here against a champion wrestler:



And then here's a nice reversal against Funaki, working from the half-guard and securing wrist control and then slipping out the back door:



And then a super slick little ankle pick to thwart Funaki's TD:



Ken's wrestling was legit, and in his prime he was just so powerful, there's no way Barnett has the advantage there. His size may have given Ken fits, but he also took the much bigger Andre Van Den Oetelaar down his first try with ease in about two seconds:



And then, of course, there's the ease with which he picked up and dropped the 270-pound Kimo in their first fight. Strength and skill, Ken had them both in spades.



100%. His TDs were very impressive, and very powerful despite his size.



Plus there are just very few people who have watched all of his Pancrase fights, so not only is the perception colored of what people do know of Ken's career, there's a lot that they don't know about it. But he was absolutely a monster grappler and far more impressive than most give him credit for.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but is there documentation of Ken actually winning two matches at the 1988 Olympic trials? Do we know who he beat? The only thing I could find is apparently Ken said this in a 2002 interview:

He was training for the Olympics at the time, so it was easy for him to kick the shit out of a bodybuilder that outweighed him by about 30 pounds. He was glad he worked with Buzz because he emphasized a style of wrestling that he loved.

The Olympic trials in 1988- He remembers going in there at the 220 class weighing 205 because he couldn�t find a way to gain weight safely, as he kept losing weight as he was training and he didn�t want to end up in a weight class below 200. He got a few matches into the trials when he faced off with a badass All American college wrestler. He took the guy down a few times but ended up getting tossed around by him, with the guy getting 15 points by doing three gutwrench suplexes in a short amount of time and the judges stopping the match due to a superior decision as a result. He didn�t like the points for moves thing, as he preferred to do mat wrestling and either keep guys in holds for points or to pin them for the win.

Ken Shamrock Shoot Interview

Ken's MMA record speaks for itself, but this sounds like locker room exaggeration. I just can't see anyone without a documented freestyle record coming out and winning two, let alone a single match vs. guys who dedicated their lives to that ruleset, ESPECIALLY if he was competing at 220 lbs while weighing 205. The U.S. is top 3 (arguably the best) country for elite freestyle wrestling and has been for many decades.

To give TK credit, I think he was brilliant and innovative in many ways. The TK guard is something that's still effective today; not widely used like the F-guard/K-guard but Uno used it effectively in DREAM--granted that's a while ago--and its really a great, versatile concept. He's not explosive, but he was very smooth and slick and also extremely tough. I think you can make an argument for him deserving the win against Nogueira too, for whatever its worth. I'm just saying, don't downplay the man. He spent so much of his career in RINGs, his best years really, its hard to fully place him, but I think he's well deserving of his accolades.

What I'm saying, to quote the young kids is: don't be hating on my boy.

Yeah Kohsaka was the man. His loss to Bas still bothers me because the first 12 minutes looked like the first round and a half of short camp Mendes vs. McGregor until Rutten got a second wind and beat the shit out of him. His TK guard is great and is something I still use.

 

[Bullitt68]

To give TK credit, I think he was brilliant and innovative in many ways. The TK guard is something that's still effective today; not widely used like the F-guard/K-guard but Uno used it effectively in DREAM--granted that's a while ago--and its really a great, versatile concept. He's not explosive, but he was very smooth and slick and also extremely tough. I think you can make an argument for him deserving the win against Nogueira too, for whatever its worth. I'm just saying, don't downplay the man. He spent so much of his career in RINGs, his best years really, its hard to fully place him, but I think he's well deserving of his accolades.

What I'm saying, to quote the young kids is: don't be hating on my boy.

I'm not hating on TK, but he's levels below Ken. And in no universe did he deserve the decision against Nogueira. He was on defense for the whole fight, got taken down repeatedly and spent the majority of the fight on the bottom, when he was on top briefly he'd be swept or have to defend triangles. He'd always put up a good fight against elite competitors, but he'd also always lose to elite competitors. Solid skills, but not on Ken's level.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but is there documentation of Ken actually winning two matches at the 1988 Olympic trials?

How would one find documentation? I'm genuinely asking, as I don't know of a Sherdog Fight Finder for wrestling. But Ken's talked about it plenty.



If you know how to run the info down, please do, or please tell me.

Yeah Kohsaka was the man. His loss to Bas still bothers me because the first 12 minutes looked like the first round and a half of short camp Mendes vs. McGregor until Rutten got a second wind and beat the shit out of him. His TK guard is great and is something I still use.

Have you watched that fight in a minute? Bas was fine every second of the fight. He never had any wrestling, so it's no surprise he got taken down, but he actually stuffed TK's first TD, clocked him with a bunch of punches while he tried for a second TD, reversed him almost immediately after the first TD, hit him with a nasty front kick to the body on the feet, was hitting him with knees to the face off his back, nearly buckled him with an inside low kick, stuffed his last two TDs at the end of regulation...Bas was on his way to winning the whole time. TK was just surviving, and since he was never Mark Coleman he never threatened with any GNP and he didn't want to let Bas up (or get subbed himself) so he also didn't gamble with any submissions.

 

[ChickenBrother]

How would one find documentation? I'm genuinely asking, as I don't know of a Sherdog Fight Finder for wrestling. But Ken's talked about it plenty.



If you know how to run the info down, please do, or please tell me.

You didn't mark the video so I'm posting it below. If the mark doesn't work it starts at 54:02



I looked for the 1988 Olympic freestyle trials bracket but couldn't find it online - if anyone knows, would love to see it myself. But the way Ken explains it, his story is believable. Sounds like this was before you had to actually qualify for the trials - you could literally be out drinking the night before and decide you wanted to do the trials the next morning (as Ken himself says he did). So the guys he beat were almost certainly scrubs who also had no business being there. Ken admits he never trained freestyle or even competed in folkstyle wrestling past high school (where he "almost" qualified for state before he broke his neck). This isn't meant to diminish Ken but claiming he won 2 matches in an open tournament that included drunks off the street (of which Ken admits he was himself), doesn't belong up there with his other accolades.

And mad respect for refusing to talk about how he did against Coleman in training. What happens in training stays in training. Man card retained.

Have you watched that fight in a minute? Bas was fine every second of the fight. He never had any wrestling, so it's no surprise he got taken down, but he actually stuffed TK's first TD, clocked him with a bunch of punches while he tried for a second TD, reversed him almost immediately after the first TD, hit him with a nasty front kick to the body on the feet, was hitting him with knees to the face off his back, nearly buckled him with an inside low kick, stuffed his last two TDs at the end of regulation...Bas was on his way to winning the whole time. TK was just surviving, and since he was never Mark Coleman he never threatened with any GNP and he didn't want to let Bas up (or get subbed himself) so he also didn't gamble with any submissions.

I'll admit it's been years since I last saw it, but I just watched it again:



Bas for sure is more effective with striking on the feet but TK dominates with takedowns again and again and is landing more effective GnP from top than Bas' counterstriking from bottom. IMO the first stand up at 5:25 is complete bullshit because TK is landing very effective GnP from top half guard with Rutten flattened out on bottom. But TK quickly takes him down again a minute later, after eating another leg kick he shouldn't have had to. The second stand up at 9:20 is debatable but TK is in Rutten's closed guard landing flaccid GnP to the head. Less egregious than I remember but still debatable. That's what leads to TK taking more damage and you can see the tide turning. Even still, I think TK deserved the decision, had the fight ended at the end of the regulation 12 minutes. In the 3 min overtime, TK is gassed and Bas' leg kicks (accumulated because of the stand-ups) have taken their toll and Bas ends it with 45 seconds of overtime remaining.

So yeah, Rutten's turning of the tide was more gradual and more well-earned than I remember. Still, TK was in it until the OT period and had the stand-ups not happened, I think could have taken this.

 

[Bullitt68]

You didn't mark the video so I'm posting it below.

I did time stamp it but since the updates Sherdog has been real wonky with videos which makes me look bad

I looked for the 1988 Olympic freestyle trials bracket but couldn't find it online - if anyone knows, would love to see it myself. But the way Ken explains it, his story is believable. Sounds like this was before you had to actually qualify for the trials - you could literally be out drinking the night before and decide you wanted to do the trials the next morning (as Ken himself says he did). So the guys he beat were almost certainly scrubs who also had no business being there. Ken admits he never trained freestyle or even competed in folkstyle wrestling past high school (where he "almost" qualified for state before he broke his neck). This isn't meant to diminish Ken but claiming he won 2 matches in an open tournament that included drunks off the street (of which Ken admits he was himself), doesn't belong up there with his other accolades.

To be fair, the Olympic trials weren't Toughmans, it wasn't just "scrubs" who "had no business being there." They were weeding out the very best wrestlers, but the only people showing up were skilled wrestlers. Ken didn't walk through Kurt Angle and Dave Schultz to get to that third match, but there's a level of competition there that's still impressive. This is really what @Kforcer and I have been harping on this whole thread: We're not saying that Ken is the GOAT, he wasn't Karelin on the mat and Fedor in the ring, but he's above "scrub" level talent and was an extremely high level submission wrestler who doesn't get a fraction of the respect that he deserves.

And mad respect for refusing to talk about how he did against Coleman in training. What happens in training stays in training. Man card retained.

He's always been that way. I think it was John Peretti, the old UFC matchmaker (and fucking blowhard), who talked about how Ken "humbled" Coleman when he went to train at the Lion's Den. But I've never heard Ken say a word about it. In fact, Ken goes the other way: I've never heard him talk about all the fighters he schooled, but he's talked a lot about how when he was starting the Pancrase guys would wipe the floor with him. He worked his WWF-style persona a lot on the mic, but he's a very cool, very humble, and very honorable guy.

TK dominates with takedowns again and again and is landing more effective GnP from top than Bas' counterstriking from bottom.

"Dominates" with TDs? What was he, 3 for 6? Again, perspective here. Bas had ZERO wrestling and almost no TDD to speak of, yet he stopped multiple TD attempts. Randleman dominated Bas with TDs. TK scored a few and missed a few.

IMO the first stand up at 5:25 is complete bullshit because TK is landing very effective GnP from top half guard with Rutten flattened out on bottom. But TK quickly takes him down again a minute later, after eating another leg kick he shouldn't have had to. The second stand up at 9:20 is debatable but TK is in Rutten's closed guard landing flaccid GnP to the head. Less egregious than I remember but still debatable. That's what leads to TK taking more damage and you can see the tide turning. Even still, I think TK deserved the decision, had the fight ended at the end of the regulation 12 minutes. In the 3 min overtime, TK is gassed and Bas' leg kicks (accumulated because of the stand-ups) have taken their toll and Bas ends it with 45 seconds of overtime remaining.

Once again, we need perspective here. First, standups back in the day weren't based on inactivity like today. They weren't punishments to the man on top for stalling, and so BJM wasn't making mistakes standing them up. They always stood fighters up after a chunk of time just to mix it up no matter what, especially after Royce/Severn at UFC 4 and the UFC 5, 7, and 9 Superfights. (They stood the fighters up in Pancrase even more often and that org was all about the ground game.) So the standup wasn't "complete bullshit," it's the way standups worked back then. Second, there was never a decision after the regulation period. The older UFCs were geared toward finishes, so the regulation period was basically just a really long round and then the OTs were to give them extra chances to finish. Only after the OTs (starting at the Ultimate Ultimate 1995 tournament) would decisions be rendered. So saying TK deserved the decision after the regulation period in that fight is like saying Randy Couture deserved the decision after the third round in his UFC 39 fight against Ricco Rodriguez: That's the way the scorecards would've added up, but it's a silly metric since the fight was scheduled for five and Ricco finished Randy in the fifth. Bas fought the way that he fought because he knew he had the time, and he made great use of it.

TK was in it until the OT period and had the stand-ups not happened, I think could have taken this.

Well, at least we agree that had the fight been different it would've been different

 

[ChickenBrother]

To be fair, the Olympic trials weren't Toughmans, it wasn't just "scrubs" who "had no business being there." They were weeding out the very best wrestlers, but the only people showing up were skilled wrestlers. Ken didn't walk through Kurt Angle and Dave Schultz to get to that third match, but there's a level of competition there that's still impressive. This is really what @Kforcer and I have been harping on this whole thread: We're not saying that Ken is the GOAT, he wasn't Karelin on the mat and Fedor in the ring, but he's above "scrub" level talent and was an extremely high level submission wrestler who doesn't get a fraction of the respect that he deserves.



He's always been that way. I think it was John Peretti, the old UFC matchmaker (and fucking blowhard), who talked about how Ken "humbled" Coleman when he went to train at the Lion's Den. But I've never heard Ken say a word about it. In fact, Ken goes the other way: I've never heard him talk about all the fighters he schooled, but he's talked a lot about how when he was starting the Pancrase guys would wipe the floor with him. He worked his WWF-style persona a lot on the mic, but he's a very cool, very humble, and very honorable guy.

100% agree. And I'm not saying Ken was a scrub, far from it. I'm saying he wasn't an elite freestyle wrestler and he had no business competing at a national, let alone international level tourney in that ruleset. Saying he beat two unknowns at the Olympic trials when it was open entry and he was drinking the night before and had never trained in freestyle is a little like bragging you scored 4 touchdowns in a single game in high school football for Polk High, when you're a 45 year old shoe salesman.

But you know who IS a scrub? Me. I wrestled in high school. Earned and defended my starting varsity spot my entire senior year. Switched to Judo in college and same thing - worked my ass off and earned starting college team spot my senior year. Also competed in club freestyle wrestling tourneys during college and did some low level senior freestyle wrestling tourneys up to age 26. I have probably 20 years of training and competition experience across wrestling (folkstyle, freestyle and greco roman), Judo and BJJ. But I never sniffed a national level anything and I was lucky to get on the podium at regional level tourneys. Even if we were same age and weight, Ken would smash the absolute fuck out of me in any grappling ruleset from thumb wrestling on up. But there are levels to everything.

And I'm a Ken fan. I attended one of his seminars in 2004 and he used me to demonstrate the leglock entry he did on Don Frye. It was badass. Fan for life. TUF noobs don't give him the respect he deserves.

"Dominates" with TDs? What was he, 3 for 6? Again, perspective here. Bas had ZERO wrestling and almost no TDD to speak of, yet he stopped multiple TD attempts. Randleman dominated Bas with TDs. TK scored a few and missed a few.



Once again, we need perspective here. First, standups back in the day weren't based on inactivity like today. They weren't punishments to the man on top for stalling, and so BJM wasn't making mistakes standing them up. They always stood fighters up after a chunk of time just to mix it up no matter what, especially after Royce/Severn at UFC 4 and the UFC 5, 7, and 9 Superfights. (They stood the fighters up in Pancrase even more often and that org was all about the ground game.) So the standup wasn't "complete bullshit," it's the way standups worked back then. Second, there was never a decision after the regulation period. The older UFCs were geared toward finishes, so the regulation period was basically just a really long round and then the OTs were to give them extra chances to finish. Only after the OTs (starting at the Ultimate Ultimate 1995 tournament) would decisions be rendered. So saying TK deserved the decision after the regulation period in that fight is like saying Randy Couture deserved the decision after the third round in his UFC 39 fight against Ricco Rodriguez: That's the way the scorecards would've added up, but it's a silly metric since the fight was scheduled for five and Ricco finished Randy in the fifth. Bas fought the way that he fought because he knew he had the time, and he made great use of it.



Well, at least we agree that had the fight been different it would've been different

Lol I think we just have different perspectives and may have to agree to disagree on this my friend. I'm familiar with the rules of the time and I'm not saying TK "should have won a decision." I'm saying that had it gone to decision after 12 minutes (which of course it wasn't supposed to), TK would have won a hypothetical one IMHO. But Bas won fairly squarely by the rules. However I still think the first stand up was bullshit lol.

 

[Bullitt68]

100% agree. And I'm not saying Ken was a scrub, far from it. I'm saying he wasn't an elite freestyle wrestler and he had no business competing at a national, let alone international level tourney in that ruleset. Saying he beat two unknowns at the Olympic trials when it was open entry and he was drinking the night before and had never trained in freestyle is a little like bragging you scored 4 touchdowns in a single game in high school football for Polk High, when you're a 45 year old shoe salesman.

But you know who IS a scrub? Me. I wrestled in high school. Earned and defended my starting varsity spot my entire senior year. Switched to Judo in college and same thing - worked my ass off and earned starting college team spot my senior year. Also competed in club freestyle wrestling tourneys during college and did some low level senior freestyle wrestling tourneys up to age 26. I have probably 20 years of training and competition experience across wrestling (folkstyle, freestyle and greco roman), Judo and BJJ. But I never sniffed a national level anything and I was lucky to get on the podium at regional level tourneys. Even if we were same age and weight, Ken would smash the absolute fuck out of me in any grappling ruleset from thumb wrestling on up. But there are levels to everything.

And I'm a Ken fan. I attended one of his seminars in 2004 and he used me to demonstrate the leglock entry he did on Don Frye. It was badass. Fan for life. TUF noobs don't give him the respect he deserves.




Lol I think we just have different perspectives and may have to agree to disagree on this my friend. I'm familiar with the rules of the time and I'm not saying TK "should have won a decision." I'm saying that had it gone to decision after 12 minutes (which of course it wasn't supposed to), TK would have won a hypothetical one IMHO. But Bas won fairly squarely by the rules. However I still think the first stand up was bullshit lol.

I forgot how much better it is talking about shit here in the training forums, where people know what they're talking about, are willing to consider other people's opinions, rewatch fights to test their previous assessments, and generally discuss in a friendly fashion.



And very cool about the Ken seminar. A friend of mine fought for a little while and he tapped a guy at a show where Ken was the special guest. I told him that winning by submission in front of Ken Shamrock would be cooler to me than any title

 

[Rob Battisti]

I forgot how much better it is talking about shit here in the training forums, where people know what they're talking about, are willing to consider other people's opinions, rewatch fights to test their previous assessments, and generally discuss in a friendly fashion.



And very cool about the Ken seminar. A friend of mine fought for a little while and he tapped a guy at a show where Ken was the special guest. I told him that winning by submission in front of Ken Shamrock would be cooler to me than any title

This has been a great thread with good old school knowledge and perspective

 

[Kforcer]

I'm not hating on TK, but he's levels below Ken. And in no universe did he deserve the decision against Nogueira. He was on defense for the whole fight, got taken down repeatedly and spent the majority of the fight on the bottom, when he was on top briefly he'd be swept or have to defend triangles. He'd always put up a good fight against elite competitors, but he'd also always lose to elite competitors. Solid skills, but not on Ken's level.

Fila does have a wrestling database; I've consulted it a number of times to verify claims. For instance, unfortunately, a friend claimed he was a bronze medalist in freestyle and there's no record of him whatsoever in the database. Its not totally comprehensive though, especially past a certain point. For example, it has Takahashi's world cup bronze medal but nothing else and for a number of decorated wrestlers its like that. Past a certain time frame its pretty comprehensive though.

As far as TK-Nogueira, maybe I'll have to watch it again but I remembered TK landing some big throws on Nogueira and at the very least, giving a very good account of himself. Personally, either way, I'm just not comfortable saying that he was "levels below" Ken, as they're just too different. Ken's greatest strength was his ability to channel his explosive strength and speed into sudden submission attacks, along with, of course, his overall agility and grace for a guy of his size and musculature.

TK was a grappling genius and innovator but he was never a guy with explosive, decisive submission transitions. But he was extremely tricky and smooth and also highly adaptable in difficult situations; that's part of what the TK guard was all about and I think his guile, heart, adaptability deserve plaudits. But I get that you're not saying he sucked or anything. I guess I mostly just think that its wrong to say that Ken was clearly several levels above the guy when they were such different animals with different sorts of careers.

 

[moreorless87]

Come on, man. This is insane. Barnett wasn't "badly outmatched" standing in front of K-1 champions? Ken would've done the same as Barnett and he'd have had the same success, especially since he had better TDs. Barnett took Schilt down in two seconds and tapped him in a round in their UFC fight, and then in their rematch he again scored every TD that he attempted. And let's not forget how easily and viciously Sergei Kharitonov mauled Schilt. As for Hunt, give me a fucking break, man. Ken would do exactly what Barnett did, except maybe he would've gone for a choke instead of an arm lock.

Come on, man. Not only was TK old and weathered fighting Hunt literally in his retirement match, but he was smaller than Ken, weaker than Ken, and had worse wrestling than Ken. (He was a judoka, whereas Ken competed in the fucking Olympic trials, which is to say: TK had no wrestling and Ken had great wrestling).

Again, in MMA I'd give the edge to Barnett while in grappling it'd be very close, but you're talking nonsense here. Ken wasn't Fedor in his prime, but he's not fucking TK.

Barnett was outmatched standing with them but I think better able to withstand punishment than Ken, a fight like Aleks for example showed that and even losing against Cormier he was able to withstand a ton of punishment so I think even if he didnt get Hunt down as quickly he'd have been better able to last until he did.

Semmy by that point wasnt clueless on the ground, it took Barnett along time to sub him in the rematch and he survived the entire fight vs Fedor, granted Fedor may have been fiighting a bit conservative but still I don't think he was some easy pickings on the ground.

Again for me it would come down to the levels involved, I just don't think Ken as a a sub fighter or a wrestler was as good as Barnett, Nog(yes I think Nogs wrestling was undervalued, had a very effective if inconsistant long distance shoot during his prime), Fedor, etc. He could have a decent chance in style matchups like Semmy and Hunt but neither of those two was just a case of "easy takedown and sub".

 

[Kforcer]

Barnett was outmatched standing with them but I think better able to withstand punishment than Ken, a fight like Aleks for example showed that and even losing against Cormier he was able to withstand a ton of punishment so I think even if he didnt get Hunt down as quickly he'd have been better able to last until he did.

Semmy by that point wasnt clueless on the ground, it took Barnett along time to sub him in the rematch and he survived the entire fight vs Fedor, granted Fedor may have been fiighting a bit conservative but still I don't think he was some easy pickings on the ground.

Again for me it would come down to the levels involved, I just don't think Ken as a a sub fighter or a wrestler was as good as Barnett, Nog(yes I think Nogs wrestling was undervalued, had a very effective if inconsistant long distance shoot during his prime), Fedor, etc. He could have a decent chance in style matchups like Semmy and Hunt but neither of those two was just a case of "easy takedown and sub".

Nogueira's wrestling was definitely way more effective than people have tended to give it credit for. It looked awful, but he tended to make it work more often than not, in part due to his dogged persistence and I think also partially because he didn't have to worry, generally speaking, about people trying to take him down. Its certainly easier to score takedowns on people who have limited themselves to defense, to some extent. But however you want to explain the phenomena, Nogueira's wrestling was generally effective, period.

Its also funny and a little ironic that Nogueira, who literally took offense to Barnett calling himself a catch-wrestler, took his most famous piece of offense--the Anaconda choke--directly from luta livre via Milton Vieira and no doubt benefited greatly from Gholar's coaching in wrestling as well and actually had some pretty mean toe-holds and kneebars, including a nice rolling toe-hold. But of course, he also had a mean, mean guard. Those deep-half sweeps of his were great back in the day, even better, probably, because he wasn't afraid to take damage in the process.

 

[moreorless87]

Nogueira's wrestling was definitely way more effective than people have tended to give it credit for. It looked awful, but he tended to make it work more often than not, in part due to his dogged persistence and I think also partially because he didn't have to worry, generally speaking, about people trying to take him down. Its certainly easier to score takedowns on people who have limited themselves to defense, to some extent. But however you want to explain the phenomena, Nogueira's wrestling was generally effective, period.

Its also funny and a little ironic that Nogueira, who literally took offense to Barnett calling himself a catch-wrestler, took his most famous piece of offense--the Anaconda choke--directly from luta livre via Milton Vieira and no doubt benefited greatly from Gholar's coaching in wrestling as well and actually had some pretty mean toe-holds and kneebars, including a nice rolling toe-hold. But of course, he also had a mean, mean guard. Those deep-half sweeps of his were great back in the day, even better, probably, because he wasn't afraid to take damage in the process.

Part of it I spose is that Nog was rarely afraid of being on his back(really only vs Werdum did he look to avoid it) which meant he didnt have to worry about leaving himself open for takedown/reversals but a younger Nog was also pretty agile and able to hit some pretty fast long distance double/single leg shots, they could look ugly sometimes but they were effective and well suited for Semmy.

 

[Kforcer]

Part of it I spose is that Nog was rarely afraid of being on his back(really only vs Werdum did he look to avoid it) which meant he didnt have to worry about leaving himself open for takedown/reservals but a younger Nog was pretty agile and able to hit some pretty fast long distance double/single leg shots, they could look ugly sometimes but they were effective and well suited for Semmy.

Yeah, they were inarguably effective. The results speak for themselves.

 

[don't ask]

I'm in shock that anyone thinks Ken would beat Barnett, but it looks like this thread is full of info so I guess I'll start reading and see if I change my mind.

 

[don't ask]

I keep seeing Ken's Olympic wrestling trials being mentioned, but weren't they walk-ons? Any wrestler could try out? I've read many times that they were.

EDIT: nm, you guys covered Ken's walk-on trials in the discussion

 

[don't ask]

Can someone tell me what the hell the TK guard is? I was a huge fan of TK when I was a kid, but that was before I started training. I just went back and watched all of his UFC fights (except the Pete Williams one, I'll do that one tomorrow) and can't figure out what it refers to. He spends a lot of time in half guard and gets a lot of sweeps from half butterfly.


Hearing people in this thread praise it really makes me curious. I'll rewatch his Pride fights after the Petey one because I remember Bas and Quadros going on non-stop about the TK guard. And I've got a bunch of Mo Smith fights bookmarked to watch in the next week to see if he showcases the TK guard.

At any rate, TK isn't getting enough respect in this thread. There is some amazing stuff in here:

 

[Bullitt68]

I'm in shock that anyone thinks Ken would beat Barnett, but it looks like this thread is full of info so I guess I'll start reading and see if I change my mind.

Can someone tell me what the hell the TK guard is? I was a huge fan of TK when I was a kid, but that was before I started training. I just went back and watched all of his UFC fights (except the Pete Williams one, I'll do that one tomorrow) and can't figure out what it refers to. He spends a lot of time in half guard and gets a lot of sweeps from half butterfly.


Hearing people in this thread praise it really makes me curious. I'll rewatch his Pride fights after the Petey one because I remember Bas and Quadros going on non-stop about the TK guard. And I've got a bunch of Mo Smith fights bookmarked to watch in the next week to see if he showcases the TK guard.

At any rate, TK isn't getting enough respect in this thread. There is some amazing stuff in here:

Williams really shit the bed against TK. He made the most out of that Coleman bout, but against TK and Randleman, when he could've leveled up, he failed. As for TK, @Kforcer could give you a much more detailed answer, but basically, the TK guard is an early version of an open guard. (Some people call it a butterfly guard prototype, but that's not quite right as his feet were outside, not inside. Maybe the confusion is because he would also sometimes play butterfly guard.) He played an open guard when most everyone thought that you could only be safe defensively and effective offensively from the closed guard. (He was also good in the half guard at wrapping the leg up, often even triangling it before many people were doing that.) You have to remember, people were blown away by the closed guard and then we started to see even strikers wrap their legs around people when they'd get taken down. The TK guard didn't take the world by storm - it didn't even enjoy half of the notoriety or influence as the rubber guard - but it's always cool seeing the evolution of MMA as new pieces were added to the fighting puzzle as guys tried to figure shit out.