Ken vs barnett

[TheMaster]

"Ducked"? You've been on this site for 22 years. I'd guess you're at least 35 years old, probably much older than that, yet you talk like a 12-year-old. I already know that nothing will come of this discussion. Your mind is already made up. Literally every single time you engage me in conversation, you do nothing but shit on Ken. It's boring. We don't have real conversations. I provide information, you ignore it.

You say all this while having a meltdown like a 12 year old over a simple question, to defend your idolizing devotionalism to Ken that obscures all rationality, reminiscent of how I use to feel about pro wrestlers when I was 12....
I am fair to Ken, I just dont like and object to some of your attempts at flagrant revisionism, which you, and only you subscribe to.

It won't matter to you when I tell you that Ken used palm strikes, elbows, and punches to the body.

He barely committed for half an hour on the feet. Whatever he threw during the brief period on the ground was not particularly significant.

You'll say "Blah blah Pancrase blah" and then ignore Severn's clear statement "I came up with my strategy of how am I gonna piss off 10,000 people in an arena. And guess what, I succeeded. I pissed off all these fans watching" and continue to blame Ken for everything.

Yes, Dan was at fault also. But it takes two to tango in that circling farce of inaction.

You came up first with this longwinded sorry sob story to defend Ken

He wasn't incapable, he heard that competitors who broke the rules laid down by the court were potentially going to be fined or even jailed, and so he elected to observe those rules, not just because he didn't want to go to jail - which was absolutely a possibility since the same month as UFC 9 eight fighters and promoters connected to Extreme Challenge were arrested in Montreal after an event - but because he was starting to become a role model and had just spent a day with the Windsor Boys and Girls club and couldn't stomach the idea of kids who look up to him seeing him behind bars or in handcuffs. He didn't trust that the SEG "compromise" was worth the risk, so he decided to obey the rules that had been laid down. He didn't suddenly forget how to punch and nobody has ever said anything that stupid, except you...


Ken neither circled nor danced. He stood in the center of the cage and watched Severn avoid him for nearly the entire fight.

"Ken didn't want to get jailed"..."Ken wanted to be a role model for the Windsor boys and girls club".

Give me a break with this level of sickening syrupy adoration excuse making.

Palm striking was legal.

Ken was highly versed in Palm stikes which were the only permitted hand strikes on the feet in Pancrase.

Ken threw about T̶h̶i̶r̶t̶y̶-̶s̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ five palm strikes while standing against Dan, only maybe 2 with any kind of commitment and both with no followup, instead opting to engage in a staring match that cost the UFC hundreds of thousands of dollars.

One of Kens palms. If he had done this x20 this fight wouldnt have the reputation it does today.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

- Barnet is leagues above Ken when it's comes to skill-wise. I liked Ken. He was a real monster.

But not the type of guy to have a chance against Barnet, when Ken strenght is grappling and Barnet is far more well-rounded.

 

[Kforcer]

So you didn't need to make the last post and you could've just said in this post, "No, you were right, I agree with you." Do you see how pathological this is?



Of course it counts in his overall career. But we were talking about his prime. You brought up his prime, you specifically posted 1994-1996, and then when I bring up his prime, you bring up his first NHB experience two months into his career. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.



Well, they said it, so it must be true.



Yes, it did, but you'll never accept it, and no matter what I say, you'll keep harping on the same BS, as evidenced by the fact that we've done this dance many times before, so what's the point in continuing?



It's tough because he was so important to MMA becoming mainstream. It's hard to imagine an alternate universe where there was no UFC 40 Tito fight or TUF 1 finale headliner against Franklin. But just for Ken's individual legacy, I think that he would've been best-served to have retired after Kimo II. He was healthy post-Frye and post-Tito - his knees were already so bad in the Frye fight that he literally couldn't shoot a TD, which is why he did that scissor leglock entry, and then against Tito his knee was completely shot and he was literally a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest - he was back at HW, he headlined another UFC, he squared off against a fellow old schooler, he scored a first-round KO, the event was on Father's Day and Bob was in the crowd for the shout-out...sort of a fairy tale ending.

My read of the scissor that it was honestly pure reflex; I think he was on queer street and it was like, he was executing a move that was so deeply ingrained in him it just happened on what was basically autopilot. But I definitely believe that about his knees. Another huge factor was that insane weight cut so late into his career. A man who was pure muscle losing that much weight is never a healthy proposition. Reminds me of Coleman cutting to 205...or what happened with Jake Shields. That was one of the UFC's oldest tricks with incoming fighters from other orgs; drain them of weight and put them in against their stars. At least that's how I saw it.

So, on other subjects. Funaki is awesome and the K-guard is rightly named the F-guard. Shadow Fury was a great movie, so was Godzilla: Final Wars...and not because of Don Frye.

 

[Kforcer]

- Barnet is leagues above Ken when it's comes to skill-wise. I liked Ken. He was a real monster.

But not the type of guy to have a chance against Barnet, when Ken strenght is grappling and Barnet is far more well-rounded.

Prime to prime...? I don't know man. Ken was lightning fast for a guy his size. I'm just not sure.

 

[Bullitt68]

My read of the scissor that it was honestly pure reflex; I think he was on queer street and it was like, he was executing a move that was so deeply ingrained in him it just happened on what was basically autopilot.

I'd buy that, but I know for a fact that it was part of Ken's game plan. That move was in lieu of a TD, which he couldn't execute with his knee - the same knee that'd go completely between the Frye fight and the Tito fight - so fucked up. The PRIDE 19 DVD had a bunch of pre- and post-fight footage as bonus extras, including this pre-fight footage with Ken and Guy practicing it in the ring ahead of time (the only video I could find with this footage is some guy talking over it on his own channel):

Another huge factor was that insane weight cut so late into his career. A man who was pure muscle losing that much weight is never a healthy proposition. Reminds me of Coleman cutting to 205...or what happened with Jake Shields. That was one of the UFC's oldest tricks with incoming fighters from other orgs; drain them of weight and put them in against their stars. At least that's how I saw it.

Well, it's partly Ken's fault, too. He'd already leaned down to 212 for the Frye fight, which he trained extremely hard for. For Tito, he just didn't diet or train the way that he needed to, no doubt due in large part to the serious injury he was dealing with. None of which is to say anything about his even fighting at 205 in the first place. I wonder if Tito would've agreed to a HW or catchweight fight without the title on the line if Ken had asked for that. Fighting at 205 was definitely advantage Tito, as he was one of the first master weight cutters and he was MUCH bigger than Ken in that fight having just cut and then ballooned back up whereas Ken dieted down and lost a lot of size and strength. Lots of shit from injuries to weight cutting that were working against Ken that night, never mind his coming back busted up from the WWF while Tito was a wrecking machine

So, on other subjects. Funaki is awesome and the K-guard is rightly named the F-guard.

I also loved Funaki because once he started to incorporate BJJ, he did funky stuff with it that I never saw any BJJ guys do. I used to try to hit this on my friends in BJJ classes, and once when they asked where I'd even seen it, I showed them Funaki doing it in Pancrase. He did it to Frank Shamrock in one of their fights and got a rope escape out of it, but here he is winning with it: He gets a triangle from his back, but instead of focusing on the choke, he isolates an arm, but he doesn't go for a triangle-armbar, he wrenches the arm in a kimura. Very weird position and a weird finish, but effective if you've got the chops.

Shadow Fury was a great movie, so was Godzilla: Final Wars...and not because of Don Frye.

Haha, when I was a kid and thought I was going to be Quentin Tarantino, I'd write screenplays, and one was a Green Hornet movie (before Seth Rogen made his) in which I imagined Funaki playing the villainous martial artist and Samurai who'd give good guy Kato all he could handle. Even though Suzuki would often play the heavy, Funaki's look, with the longer black hair from those early Pancrase days, he looked like a great villain

Then again, we also could've had a fun buddy cop movie

 

[Kforcer]

I'd buy that, but I know for a fact that it was part of Ken's game plan. That move was in lieu of a TD, which he couldn't execute with his knee - the same knee that'd go completely between the Frye fight and the Tito fight - so fucked up. The PRIDE 19 DVD had a bunch of pre- and post-fight footage as bonus extras, including this pre-fight footage with Ken and Guy practicing it in the ring ahead of time (the only video I could find with this footage is some guy talking over it on his own channel):





Well, it's partly Ken's fault, too. He'd already leaned down to 212 for the Frye fight, which he trained extremely hard for. For Tito, he just didn't diet or train the way that he needed to, no doubt due in large part to the serious injury he was dealing with. None of which is to say anything about his even fighting at 205 in the first place. I wonder if Tito would've agreed to a HW or catchweight fight without the title on the line if Ken had asked for that. Fighting at 205 was definitely advantage Tito, as he was one of the first master weight cutters and he was MUCH bigger than Ken in that fight having just cut and then ballooned back up whereas Ken dieted down and lost a lot of size and strength. Lots of shit from injuries to weight cutting that were working against Ken that night, never mind his coming back busted up from the WWF while Tito was a wrecking machine



I also loved Funaki because once he started to incorporate BJJ, he did funky stuff with it that I never saw any BJJ guys do. I used to try to hit this on my friends in BJJ classes, and once when they asked where I'd even seen it, I showed them Funaki doing it in Pancrase. He did it to Frank Shamrock in one of their fights and got a rope escape out of it, but here he is winning with it: He gets a triangle from his back, but instead of focusing on the choke, he isolates an arm, but he doesn't go for a triangle-armbar, he wrenches the arm in a kimura. Very weird position and a weird finish, but effective if you've got the chops.





Haha, when I was a kid and thought I was going to be Quentin Tarantino, I'd write screenplays, and one was a Green Hornet movie (before Seth Rogen made his) in which I imagined Funaki playing the villainous martial artist and Samurai who'd give good guy Kato all he could handle. Even though Suzuki would often play the heavy, Funaki's look, with the longer black hair from those early Pancrase days, he looked like a great villain

Then again, we also could've had a fun buddy cop movie

I had a Funaki highlight up online for a while, but I took it down after I got copyright-struck for my Takefumi Hanai highlight. The highlight showcased a lot of his F-guard transitions, among other things. I think I will put it back up, but maybe with those helpful fair use disclaimers. I got a Manabu Yamada one in the wings too, with a mix of his Shooto and Pancrase stuff.

I guarantee your Green Hornet would blow Seth Rogen's pile of crap outta the water. Definitely true on the buddy cop movie front; wow. Now that you said that, I might think that every time I see that picture. I dunno, I'd probably trust you over most action movie directors today. Besides, with a former Shooto competitor as Hollywood's most in-demand action director, the world needs the balance of a Ken Shamrock-fan entering the picture.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

Prime to prime...? I don't know man. Ken was lightning fast for a guy his size. I'm just not sure.

- I liked Ken. But i dont think he can hang with Barnet. Barnet is a world class grappler.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

- Now that i thought about. @Idonotbelieveit wants to get a match for Ken, against @Josh Barnett in Bloodsport!

 

[Kforcer]

- I liked Ken. But i dont think he can hang with Barnet. Barnet is a world class grappler.

I think its fair to say the same of a prime Ken Shamrock. He was a rare species. But Josh is definitely a beast, a true student of the game. Its hard to call. Ken as sharper and more explosive, Josh was, IMO, more systematic perhaps and better at, from my vantage, finding and exploiting weaknesses. But that said, Ken was a very smart grappler in his prime. And Josh is definitely more dynamic than he sometimes seems; he's kind of a chameleon. I think it'd be interesting.

 

[LeonardoBjj]

I think its fair to say the same of a prime Ken Shamrock. He was a rare species. But Josh is definitely a beast, a true student of the game. Its hard to call. Ken as sharper and more explosive, Josh was, IMO, more systematic perhaps and better at, from my vantage, finding and exploiting weaknesses. But that said, Ken was a very smart grappler in his prime. And Josh is definitely more dynamic than he sometimes seems; he's kind of a chameleon. I think it'd be interesting.

- Barnet had a gas tank also. And Ken wasnt benching 600 with that body-weight! I will give to Josh bigger arsenal and deep skill level. Prime Ken cound take a beating that would make Spider-Man jealows!

 

[randomg1t]

i'm sorry guys but barnett would absolutely maul ken.

MMA or grappling, i don't think it would make much difference. bigger, better, more accomplished.

 

[Kforcer]

i'm sorry guys but barnett would absolutely maul ken.

MMA or grappling, i don't think it would make much difference. bigger, better, more accomplished.

In all seriousness, I think it is a tricky question. I mean, you can't pretend that Ken's lightning fast transitions never happened; he could move like a lightweight and was capable of sudden, explosive and precise attacks. The whole question would be whether or not he'd be able to create opportunities for those sorts of transitions with Josh. I don't think you can just disregard what Ken showed he could do in his prime but you also had to look at the way Josh is able to manage and direct the flow of grappling encounters often times.

Josh-Ken at their best is sort of hard to gauge, IMO. And as far as accomplishments, they competed under different formats, ultimately, so I don't know that you can really make a clear head-to-headl comparison in that sense. But Ken did show that he has top-flight takedown defense against guys with legitimate international credentials in wrestling against Takahashi (a World Cup bronze medalist in freestyle and a decorated wrestler), Fujita (national champoin in freestyle AND Greco, Olympic alternate), Dan Severn (Dan Severn) and Minoru Suzuki (Olympic alternate). I don't know how the wrestling battle would go between them in terms of Ken's offense, but he definitely has some slick transitions from standing.

I mean, obviously, having explosive and slick transitions doesn't mean you're unbeatable and in grappling so often its about managing the contest and being able to either shut down or force opportunities and Barnett is definitely good at that. But Ken seemed pretty good at that too.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Dan Severn (Dan Severn)

 

[Deleted member 110072]

In all seriousness, I think it is a tricky question. I mean, you can't pretend that Ken's lightning fast transitions never happened; he could move like a lightweight and was capable of sudden, explosive and precise attacks. The whole question would be whether or not he'd be able to create opportunities for those sorts of transitions with Josh. I don't think you can just disregard what Ken showed he could do in his prime but you also had to look at the way Josh is able to manage and direct the flow of grappling encounters often times.

Josh-Ken at their best is sort of hard to gauge, IMO. And as far as accomplishments, they competed under different formats, ultimately, so I don't know that you can really make a clear head-to-headl comparison in that sense. But Ken did show that he has top-flight takedown defense against guys with legitimate international credentials in wrestling against Takahashi (a World Cup bronze medalist in freestyle and a decorated wrestler), Fujita (national champoin in freestyle AND Greco, Olympic alternate), Dan Severn (Dan Severn) and Minoru Suzuki (Olympic alternate). I don't know how the wrestling battle would go between them in terms of Ken's offense, but he definitely has some slick transitions from standing.

I mean, obviously, having explosive and slick transitions doesn't mean you're unbeatable and in grappling so often its about managing the contest and being able to either shut down or force opportunities and Barnett is definitely good at that. But Ken seemed pretty good at that too.

I actually think the Ken was the best chance(in MMA) would probably be that early comeback Pride Ken as he did show some pretty good striking but honestly I feel like Barnett is a level above him.

Standing I think Barnett, bigger, tougher and a better striking, wrestling wise it maybe a bit closer but I'd favour Barnett but on the ground I think if Barnett gets ontop he'd be far more dangerous.

Ken was quick but I think against elite level grapplers he'd just be lacking in guile, the kind of game Nog was able to show on his back is IMHO beyond Ken, he didnt have that kind of diverse arsenal or ability to misdirect. You see back in Kens prime he has plenty of fights were he ends up doing very little on his back for very long spells and he'd be facing someone more skilled(besides maybe Royce) and far larger who would not give up easy openings.

 

[Bullitt68]

I actually think the Ken was the best chance(in MMA) would probably be that early comeback Pride Ken as he did show some pretty good striking but honestly I feel like Barnett is a level above him.

Standing I think Barnett, bigger, tougher and a better striking, wrestling wise it maybe a bit closer but I'd favour Barnett but on the ground I think if Barnett gets ontop he'd be far more dangerous.

If we're talking MMA, post-WWF Ken gets beat up by every version of Barnett. His knees were shot, which took away his wrestling and which slowed him down on the feet, and any disadvantage against an elite HW like Barnett is curtains for anyone. Ken's only shot at beating Barnett is in his prime, when he was a fast and powerful 225 and had a crazy chin and an endless gas tank.

Ken was quick but I think against elite level grapplers he'd just be lacking in guile, the kind of game Nog was able to show on his back is IMHO beyond Ken, he didnt have that kind of diverse arsenal or ability to misdirect. You see back in Kens prime he has plenty of fights were he ends up doing very little on his back for very long spells and he'd be facing someone more skilled(besides maybe Royce) and far larger who would not give up easy openings.

Ken was a catch wrestler, so of course he didn't have an amazing guard like Nog, but Ken operated very well from off of his back, be it to scramble out and reverse or get back to his feet or even to score submissions, like the arm triangle he choked Yoshiki Takahashi out with from off of his back in their first fight or the kneebar that he tapped Kimo with from off of his back in their first fight.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Ken was a catch wrestler, so of course he didn't have an amazing guard like Nog, but Ken operated very well from off of his back, be it to scramble out and reverse or get back to his feet or even to score submissions, like the arm triangle he choked Yoshiki Takahashi out with from off of his back in their first fight or the kneebar that he tapped Kimo with from off of his back in their first fight.

Again though I feel the end result is likely to be a slow beatdown maybe into a sub if Barnett gets ontop with Ken not really able to do alot and I feel even prime vs prime Barnett is the better wrestler.

Generally I feel like this match is a jump of two generations, Barnett started in 97 but really his prime was into the 00's(probably post UFC for his very best) were as Ken was at the top in the early 90's.

 

[Kforcer]

You know a funny thing, is looking at Yoshiki Takahashi, you wonder--or I wonder--if, with his wrestling background, he wouldn't have been better off for less of Japanese catch-style approach and something more akin to a BJJ top-game or the contemporary American style of taking people down and exploiting the top position for as long as you could. He had some beautiful submission transitions but I think he could've gotten more mileage out of a style design to take more advantage of his ability to get on top of people.

Back to Ken's case, I feel he actually did show a pretty good guard on a lot of occasions; in fact, again, he basically stole credit from Funaki with the K-guard, with Neil Melanson referring to Ken's successful use of it rather than the man who innovated it and used it way more often. He was more stationary off his back in the UFC than he was in Pancrase, but in both organizations, I think he showed a man who is more mobile and versatile off his back than he's often credited as being. I think Ken's legacy and the perception of his abilities will always inevitably suffer due ot his largely disastrous post-Tito MMA career, but he was a very special grappler in a lot of respects. Definitely not a lot of people that can move like could. I think there are a lot of variables when considering a Ken-Barnett prime to prime bout that are just tough to answer honestly, as is often the case in generation vs generation bouts. A big question, I think, is how the wrestling goes and who gets on top of who.

 

[TheMaster]

I think Ken's legacy and the perception of his abilities will always inevitably suffer due ot his largely disastrous post-Tito MMA career, but he was a very special grappler in a lot of respects.

It is indeed a great shame that Ken's most famous and widely seen phase was post WWF. The excitement he brought though coming back was unmatched. I remember Rogan literally trembling with excitement in anticipation of the first Tito fight, there are few bouts that match that for anticipation.
His grappling legacy can also be seen in the fact that he trained Frank Shamrock.

Definitely not a lot of people that can move like could. I think there are a lot of variables when considering a Ken-Barnett prime to prime bout that are just tough to answer honestly, as is often the case in generation vs generation bouts. A big question, I think, is how the wrestling goes and who gets on top of who.

This is a big if, and I believe Ken has shown superior standing grappling in his prime. More athletic, more powerful and stronger despite giving away some size, and a better amateur calibre and did better against elite freestyle/Greco wrestlers in MMA. So we can say he would have most likely not ended up on the bottom against Barnett.

 

[Bullitt68]

Again though I feel the end result is likely to be a slow beatdown maybe into a sub if Barnett gets ontop with Ken not really able to do alot and I feel even prime vs prime Barnett is the better wrestler.

Better wrestler? Based on what? An older Severn took him down every time save the last attempt, with Severn going for a low single, rolling onto his back, and then it was RNC city shortly thereafter. But an older Severn outwrestled Barnett while a younger Severn had literally nothing for Ken. And let's not forget that Ken competed in and won two matches in the 1988 Olympic trials. Even against Takahashi, one of the best wrestlers he ever competed against, Ken was so far ahead of him - they also trained together all the time, so Ken knew how far ahead of him he was - that he didn't really even bother stopping the shots because he knew he'd reverse him immediately on the ground. Look at the effortless reversal here against a champion wrestler:



And then here's a nice reversal against Funaki, working from the half-guard and securing wrist control and then slipping out the back door:



And then a super slick little ankle pick to thwart Funaki's TD:



Ken's wrestling was legit, and in his prime he was just so powerful, there's no way Barnett has the advantage there. His size may have given Ken fits, but he also took the much bigger Andre Van Den Oetelaar down his first try with ease in about two seconds:



And then, of course, there's the ease with which he picked up and dropped the 270-pound Kimo in their first fight. Strength and skill, Ken had them both in spades.

You know a funny thing, is looking at Yoshiki Takahashi, you wonder--or I wonder--if, with his wrestling background, he wouldn't have been better off for less of Japanese catch-style approach and something more akin to a BJJ top-game or the contemporary American style of taking people down and exploiting the top position for as long as you could. He had some beautiful submission transitions but I think he could've gotten more mileage out of a style design to take more advantage of his ability to get on top of people.

100%. His TDs were very impressive, and very powerful despite his size.

Back to Ken's case, I feel he actually did show a pretty good guard on a lot of occasions; in fact, again, he basically stole credit from Funaki with the K-guard, with Neil Melanson referring to Ken's successful use of it rather than the man who innovated it and used it way more often. He was more stationary off his back in the UFC than he was in Pancrase, but in both organizations, I think he showed a man who is more mobile and versatile off his back than he's often credited as being. I think Ken's legacy and the perception of his abilities will always inevitably suffer due ot his largely disastrous post-Tito MMA career, but he was a very special grappler in a lot of respects. Definitely not a lot of people that can move like could.

Plus there are just very few people who have watched all of his Pancrase fights, so not only is the perception colored of what people do know of Ken's career, there's a lot that they don't know about it. But he was absolutely a monster grappler and far more impressive than most give him credit for.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Better wrestler? Based on what? An older Severn took him down every time save the last attempt, with Severn going for a low single, rolling onto his back, and then it was RNC city shortly thereafter. But an older Severn outwrestled Barnett while a younger Severn had literally nothing for Ken. And let's not forget that Ken competed in and won two matches in the 1988 Olympic trials. Even against Takahashi, one of the best wrestlers he ever competed against, Ken was so far ahead of him - they also trained together all the time, so Ken knew how far ahead of him he was - that he didn't really even bother stopping the shots because he knew he'd reverse him immediately on the ground. Look at the effortless reversal here against a champion wrestler:



And then here's a nice reversal against Funaki, working from the half-guard and securing wrist control and then slipping out the back door:



And then a super slick little ankle pick to thwart Funaki's TD:



Ken's wrestling was legit, and in his prime he was just so powerful, there's no way Barnett has the advantage there. His size may have given Ken fits, but he also took the much bigger Andre Van Den Oetelaar down his first try with ease in about two seconds:



And then, of course, there's the ease with which he picked up and dropped the 270-pound Kimo in their first fight. Strength and skill, Ken had them both in spades.



100%. His TDs were very impressive, and very powerful despite his size.



Plus there are just very few people who have watched all of his Pancrase fights, so not only is the perception colored of what people do know of Ken's career, there's a lot that they don't know about it. But he was absolutely a monster grappler and far more impressive than most give him credit for.

Barnett is not an absolutely top level wrestler I'd agree but realistically fights in Pancrase takedown defence was not a strong consideration, a significantly different MMA were ground position was not viewed as a negative nearly as much. I see that being the closest aspect of a fight between them but the difference being I think Barnett ontop is much more likely to lead to a finish and indeed he's more likely to be able to escape from the bottom.

Again for me this is a significant shift up in levels, yeah theres a a lot of bullshit talk about "evolution" in modern MMA to sell UFC product but the shift between the mid 90's and the early 00's was very significant, I'd say Barnett has at least half a dozen wins better than Kens best win, maybe more(although granted I think Semmy and Hunt Ken may have had a shot against).