Ken vs barnett

[Idonotbelieveit]

How would it go grappling

 

[Rob Battisti]

Josh outweighed him by a ton.

Barnett wins.

 

[Idonotbelieveit]

Josh outweighed him by a ton.

Barnett wins.

you're right weight is a factor when both are good
Ken is the best american catch guy ever he'd find a way

 

[Patrick Jane]

Prime Ken Shamrock wins against pre-prime Josh Barnett.

Like Kerr vs. Barnett

Also hi @Idonotbelieveit . Haven't seen you post in a while.

 

[TheMaster]

Josh outweighed him by a ton.

Barnett wins.

Skill wise you have to give the edge to Barnett.
Dan Severn could not outwrestle Ken on the feet and is the same weight as Barnett, but several leagues more accomplished an amateur wrestler. Ken went to the Olympic trials for wrestlling.
Ken also had the strength advantage and was said to have benched 600 Ibs.
I go with prime Ken.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Skill wise you have to give the edge to Barnett.
Dan Severn could not outwrestle Ken on the feet and is the same weight as Barnett, but several leagues more accomplished an amateur wrestler. Ken went to the Olympic trials for wrestlling.
Ken also had the strength advantage and was said to have benched 600 Ibs.
I go with prime Ken.

It’s possible. What Ken is Prime Ken?

 

[Highway99]

In what way is Ken Shamrock a better submission wrestler than Josh Barnett?

 

[TheMaster]

It’s possible. What Ken is Prime Ken?

I would say '94- '96. He was wrecking Pancrase at this time and at the top of the UFC.
Prime Ken spent his best some of his best years in WWF as well but we cant fault him he put MMA on the map at this time.

 

[Bullitt68]

@Josh Barnett is pretty active in here, so it'd be cool to get his thoughts. Ken was so strong and had such a suffocating top game, and he was insanely fast for his size, but Josh is better from more positions and has a wider array of submissions. It's hard for me to imagine Ken losing to anybody in his prime - and other than the worked losses to Funaki and Suzuki and the disastrous Severn rematch, he didn't lose to anybody in his prime - and if this fantasy match-up happens in Pancrase then it's literally impossible for me to imagine Ken losing, but if it happens in the UFC then Josh's chances increase with his striking in the clinch on the feet and his GNP on the ground. If we're talking pure grappling like ADCC or something, we never saw Ken compete with that rule set but I'd still give him the edge for his top game and his scrambling ability. Definitely one of the more interesting "What Ifs?" in relation to Ken.

In what way is Ken Shamrock a better submission wrestler than Josh Barnett?

In what way isn't he? Stronger, faster, better TDs, nastier leg locks, higher percentage of submission finishes in MMA. Head-to-head, it's interesting to consider, but anyone who knows anything about catch wrestling or grappling in general knows how elite Ken's submission game was.

 

[TheMaster]

@Josh Barnett is pretty active in here, so it'd be cool to get his thoughts.

He is, but I doubt he would comment on this topic. He is anyway a generation lower.

It's hard for me to imagine Ken losing to anybody in his prime

Luckily you dont have to imagine much since a near prime Ken was subbed in less than 60 seconds by Royce

- and other than the worked losses to Funaki and Suzuki

quite a claim

and the disastrous Severn rematch, he didn't lose to anybody in his prime -

The Severn debacle says a lot unfortunately especially as Frye had put a boxing beat down on Amaury Bitetti earlier in the night yet Ken claimed he was scared to get sued for throwing hands. Like I said, he spent much of his prime in the WWF so we wont know the answer to a lot of these matches.

and if this fantasy match-up happens in Pancrase then it's literally impossible for me to imagine Ken losing, but if it happens in the UFC then Josh's chances increase with his striking in the clinch on the feet and his GNP on the ground. If we're talking pure grappling like ADCC or something, we never saw Ken compete with that rule set but I'd still give him the edge for his top game and his scrambling ability. Definitely one of the more interesting "What Ifs?" in relation to Ken.

Would broadly agree Ken had the edge in Pancrase. The other two is debateable.

 

[nonoob]

How would it go grappling

Smashingly well.​

 

[Rob Battisti]

Luckily you dont have to imagine much since a near prime Ken was subbed in less than 60 seconds by Royce

This is why I can’t see him beating Barnett

 

[RemyR]

Like in a straight grappling match Barnett was definitely the better out of the two

 

[Bullitt68]

He is, but I doubt he would comment on this topic. He is anyway a generation lower.

I know. But he competed in Pancrase, rolled with Suzuki...he'd have an interesting and obviously much more informed perspective.

Luckily you dont have to imagine much since a near prime Ken was subbed in less than 60 seconds by Royce

I said prime, which you saw, yet you still had to throw this in there. Prime Ken is the one who scared Royce into doing absolutely nothing for 30 minutes and then blew up his face on the feet.

quite a claim

Not really. Everyone who knows anything about Pancrase knows the second Suzuki fight was a work. The first one is an allegation, and one that I wouldn't be too surprised to learn was in fact a work. And the second Funaki fight was Ken giving Funaki a boost after his surprise loss to Ken's new Lion's Den guy Jason Delucia. That fight was also a mere eight days before Ken was going to be competing in UFC 3, and having already missed UFC 2 because of a broken hand suffered in training courtesy of Vernon White, there was no way in hell Ken was missing a second UFC, so there was no way he takes that fight unless he knew he wouldn't get hurt.

The Severn debacle says a lot unfortunately especially as Frye had put a boxing beat down on Amaury Bitetti earlier in the night yet Ken claimed he was scared to get sued for throwing hands.

It says a lot worse for Severn who was so terrified of Ken that he avoided him until he could minimize the total amount of time he'd be under threat of submission, and he still failed to secure a TD despite his wrestling pedigree, and he only won because he GNP'd while Ken respected the rules laid down beforehand, which he did for understandable reasons. Added to which, Ken was close to pulling out of the fight altogether since he had a busted nose, a torn knee, and a rib injury. But, as always, no matter what's going on, it's always 100% Ken's fault.

Would broadly agree Ken had the edge in Pancrase. The other two is debateable.

How come you have to make agreeing with me so hard?

 

[Highway99]

@Josh Barnett is pretty active in here, so it'd be cool to get his thoughts. Ken was so strong and had such a suffocating top game, and he was insanely fast for his size, but Josh is better from more positions and has a wider array of submissions. It's hard for me to imagine Ken losing to anybody in his prime - and other than the worked losses to Funaki and Suzuki and the disastrous Severn rematch, he didn't lose to anybody in his prime - and if this fantasy match-up happens in Pancrase then it's literally impossible for me to imagine Ken losing, but if it happens in the UFC then Josh's chances increase with his striking in the clinch on the feet and his GNP on the ground. If we're talking pure grappling like ADCC or something, we never saw Ken compete with that rule set but I'd still give him the edge for his top game and his scrambling ability. Definitely one of the more interesting "What Ifs?" in relation to Ken.



In what way isn't he? Stronger, faster, better TDs, nastier leg locks, higher percentage of submission finishes in MMA. Head-to-head, it's interesting to consider, but anyone who knows anything about catch wrestling or grappling in general knows how elite Ken's submission game was.

Interesting, how comparable are there submission grappling records?

 

[Bullitt68]

Interesting, how comparable are there submission grappling records?

Submission grappling wasn't really a thing when Ken was competing. ADCC didn't start until 1998, which was the first grappling-only event in which MMA fighters started to compete (and in which Barnett went 2-3). The closest thing was Pancrase, which was called "hybrid wrestling" since by and large the competitors agreed to strike on the feet and grapple on the ground, giving the ground exchanges a "purity" (i.e. no GNP) more akin to ADCC than the UFC. And Ken was literally the King of Pancrase. Ken ironically competed in more straight kickboxing matches - he psychotically agreed to a bout with Frank "The Animal" Lobman - than straight grappling matches. But based on how well Ken did in Pancrase, it's hard not to imagine him having comparable success. The Ken Shamrock that ruled Pancrase and the UFC in 1995-1996 was a terrifyingly skilled grappler with nasty finishing ability and suffocating top control. And he had no problems locking horns with the likes of Dan Severn and Kimo, both of whom were bigger and stronger than Barnett (and an older Severn did a pretty good job taking down and controlling Barnett when they fought early in Barnett's career).

 

[Highway99]

Submission grappling wasn't really a thing when Ken was competing. ADCC didn't start until 1998, which was the first grappling-only event in which MMA fighters started to compete (and in which Barnett went 2-3). The closest thing was Pancrase, which was called "hybrid wrestling" since by and large the competitors agreed to strike on the feet and grapple on the ground, giving the ground exchanges a "purity" (i.e. no GNP) more akin to ADCC than the UFC. And Ken was literally the King of Pancrase. Ken ironically competed in more straight kickboxing matches - he psychotically agreed to a bout with Frank "The Animal" Lobman - than straight grappling matches. But based on how well Ken did in Pancrase, it's hard not to imagine him having comparable success. The Ken Shamrock that ruled Pancrase and the UFC in 1995-1996 was a terrifyingly skilled grappler with nasty finishing ability and suffocating top control. And he had no problems locking horns with the likes of Dan Severn and Kimo, both of whom were bigger and stronger than Barnett (and an older Severn did a pretty good job taking down and controlling Barnett when they fought early in Barnett's career).

I appreciate the detailed response.

Overall I'd still take Barnett given his extensive submission grappling background against more modern and well rounded competition. Plus he has waved the catch wrestling banner more fervently than anyone in the country and putting on catch tournaments several times a year.

Generallly I don't usually respond to these kind of far fetched hypotheticals, unless making a prediction leading up to a bout thats actually going to take place, then its just pure fan fiction. I came across a thread that asked who would win between Sakuraba and Ad Santel...lol

 

[Bullitt68]

I appreciate the detailed response.

Overall I'd still take Barnett given his extensive submission grappling background against more modern and well rounded competition. Plus he has waved the catch wrestling banner more fervently than anyone in the country and putting on catch tournaments several times a year.

In MMA, it's a different question. Ken was generally more conservative in the UFC compared to Pancrase, and Barnett was great with elbows off of his back and he mixed his GNP and submissions very well, not to mention his clinch striking on the feet. He'd give even prime Ken serious problems. But if it's just submission wrestling, I'd give Ken the edge. If you haven't seen Ken's Pancrase bouts, they're worth checking out. Here are a few choice examples:

Generallly I don't usually respond to these kind of far fetched hypotheticals, unless making a prediction leading up to a bout thats actually going to take place, then its just pure fan fiction.

Haha, I'm the other way: I love these sorts of hypotheticals, especially when we're talking about the old school

 

[Highway99]

In MMA, it's a different question. Ken was generally more conservative in the UFC compared to Pancrase, and Barnett was great with elbows off of his back and he mixed his GNP and submissions very well, not to mention his clinch striking on the feet. He'd give even prime Ken serious problems. But if it's just submission wrestling, I'd give Ken the edge. If you haven't seen Ken's Pancrase bouts, they're worth checking out. Here are a few choice examples:









Haha, I'm the other way: I love these sorts of hypotheticals, especially when we're talking about the old school

I don't want to make is sound like I think Shamrock sucked, I just don't think he could catch Barnett. We're talking about a guy that gave up an armbar to Big Nog on purpose to escape mount then almost ripped his leg off.

As an aside, I came across Rampage's podcast just now and Barnett is the guest funnily enough released just today:

 

[Bullitt68]

I don't want to make is sound like I think Shamrock sucked, I just don't think he could catch Barnett. We're talking about a guy that gave up an armbar to Big Nog on purpose to escape mount then almost ripped his leg off.

I get it. And I'm not trying to make it sound like I think Barnett sucked. We're talking about two of the most elite catch wrestlers to ever compete in MMA, if not the two most elite. We're splitting hairs and talking about slight possible edges. But Barnett has been submitted a few times, including by the much smaller Ricardo Almeida in ADCC (Gordon Ryan is also much smaller, but he's the GOAT, so there's that) and by the much less skilled Mark Kerr. If they could catch him, Ken absolutely could've. Also, for that Nogueira fight, it bears mentioning that Nog also got tapped by a kneebar against Ricco Rodriguez in ADCC. His leg game wasn't up to par, but nobody was exchanging submissions with him, so that weakness was only ever exposed by Ricco and Barnett. Credit where credit's due, but getting to Nog's legs isn't the same as if Barnett could've gotten to Arlovski's legs with his sambo training or Yuki Kondo's with his catch wrestling.

As an aside, I came across Rampage's podcast just now and Barnett is the guest funnily enough released just today:

Love that podcast. I've watched a bunch, including Ken's and Bas'. Thanks for the heads-up.