ken norton and the blackburn crouch

[Sinister]

Yes they were trained. Just not accustomed to someone trying to grab them at his speed.

 

[kenji goh]

FWIW, I'd call Norton's style the actual Philly Shell, as it was an adaptation of what Frazier used (also taught by Futch) who was a Philly-based fighter at the time and that's where Futch had strong influence due to Frazier's popularity. Also, passed down through Georgie Benton, who trained Bennie Briscoe, who used a similar positioning and approach to fighting as both Ali and Norton.



Now, WAS all this stuff influenced by Blackburn? Most-likely, Blackburn and Futch knew each other well as Futch was a regular sparring partner for Louis, even though he hated it only being a middleweight himself. Joe always requested Futch because he couldn't land punches on him. But therein lies the separation, it's likely Futch picked up defensive nuances from another source in Michigan, as he learned to box in Detroit (which I think is why they sort of look like practitioners of the Crab style Floyd uses). Then took them to Philly and applied them to the aggressive fighters there. And cemented the spread of that with Benton becoming a renowned trainer. If anything I'd say what looks influenced by Blackburn is how these men threw their punches. They dropped their weight similar to how Louis did when they wanted to hurt you.

IMO the most glaring weakness of this style is two-fold, but centered around one thing, which is that these men tended to drop their weight onto their front foot. But it's clear it had a function, they'd bait a punch, and crack you when you opened up. But if you knew how to stay back and fire from just out-of range, they could be out-boxed. That's how Briscoe lost almost all the fights he lost, and fighters who didn't give up control of distance to Benton (weren't baited by him) gave him the most problems. Also, for the hyper-aggressive ones like Briscoe and Frazier, they could be put off-balance with a shove or nudge in the right direction, they'd have to work to reset before starting anything else. Foreman did that to Frazier for most of the first minute of their bout. Just shoved him off-balance every time he went in, a-la a teacher of Foreman...Sandy Saddler.

They were all pretty adept at slipping, sliding, and rolling with punches, but some of them were a bit too rhythmic. They could be timed, albeit it took some of greatest fighters in the History of the Sport to time them.

I have read many posts of yours on this subject. In one of them you mentioned that Mayweather's style was most close to Tommy Ryan's "Crouching Crab" style that was taught to Jim Jeffries.

I just watched some videos of Jeffries but to be honest I can't spot any similarity between his and Mayweather's stance or defence.

Can you say a few more things about that style? Many old timers were fighting from the crouch. Is the crouching crab different from let's say Arturo Godoy's style, that Discipulus mentioned or Marciano's style?

 

[Sano]

Beautiful.

Do you know who he is fighting at 2:21 - 2:41? Looks like a good fight.

 

[Sinister]

Allen Thomas^

 

[Sinister]

I have read many posts of yours on this subject. In one of them you mentioned that Mayweather's style was most close to Tommy Ryan's "Crouching Crab" style that was taught to Jim Jeffries.

I just watched some videos of Jeffries but to be honest I can't spot any similarity between his and Mayweather's stance or defence.

Can you say a few more things about that style? Many old timers were fighting from the crouch. Is the crouching crab different from let's say Arturo Godoy's style, that Discipulus mentioned or Marciano's style?

We're not focused on the crouch aspect to find similarities to Floyd's style. Perhaps that's why you didn't spot any similarities. Jeffereis' training videos always looked weird to me because of how they sparred back then. Where I first saw it was in held positions:

Upward jab, rear hand guard:

Sideways catch (Floyd Sr. is BIG on this same position, Floyd Jr.'s is modified):

Hook posture (though Jeff kept his chin down better):

I'll post a few more in a separate post so as not to have too many images in one post..

 

[Sinister]

Crabby baiting position:

Body-jab:

Low lead, rear hand cocked, wight on the right hip, turned slightly sideways:

This video has some slowed-down sparring clips of Jeffries at the end. You can see pull-counters, roll-counters, each from side-favoring posture. All sorts of similar stuff:



Then in this video, when Sr. starts going backwards particularly, it looks A LOT alike:



Then in this video, you have to look really close, but Jefferies (dark shorts) is pretty much fighting exactly like Sr. above, even knocks Rubin down with one of those inside body-shots:

 

[nefti]

I have seen many times this opinion that you should be square to be able to defend the takedowns. But I am not sure where it comes from - some of the best defenders ever in wrestling used VERY sideways stance.

just out of curiosity, could you give some examples?

 

[Sinister]

He did already.

 

[kenji goh]

Sinister, thanks a lot for the elaborate reply!!
I can see now the similarities you were speaking about.

 

[shpboris]

Great Benton video


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[PivotPunch]

Just for the lulz and also for educational purposes I guess. A video where max baer shows a a few techniques including the shoulder roll. needless to say everything Baer does looks awkward as fuck but still.

@Sinister if you watch it, does uppercutting a jab really work? It's one of those super fancy boxing techniques that obviously works in theory but seems hard to pull off kinda like the one where Ward shows how to parry a punch with the forearms and knock the arm up which reminds me of the parry in Marciano's book where you not only parry the jab but jam it upward to knock the arm away.

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[Sinister]

Yeah, it works if you have the other guy's timing down.

 

[MEGAhorse]

Any examples of southpaw's (I'm a southpaw) doing these kinds of techniques?

I've seen Pernell Whitaker do some cool stuff. He was doing a shell type of posture, lead shoulder position and then weaving under the right to get on the inside.

I'd like to see how the dynamics change slightly to accomodate the mirror pose of southpaw vs. orthodox.

Also, Archie Moore seems to have had some unique blocks and tricks. Saddler was tricky too.

 

[Sinister]

Not off the top of my head. Those little gems that are hard to pull off, they tend not to have ready-made examples. I'd have to search.

 

[MEGAhorse]

What you think Sin? Pernell Whitaker used to do exactly what this first guy described for the right hand. He goes right under it.

Problem seems to be that not only do not a lot of southpaw's use this stance, but the ones that do are very advanced. So, an orthodox guy can find videos of boxers using these type of techniques of all kinds of levels. For a southpaw, it seems to be basic theory and then high level. I've actually had a coach tell me it's not a shell when in southpaw, it's only using lead shoulder position with some skill.




Theory on how to use a shell as a southpaw.
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Brief overall shell theory I found. Mentions southpaw at about 1:52
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[Sinister]

Whitaker is about the highest-level use as a Southpaw I can think of. But Benton spent so much time on him it was ridiculous. And yes, it's pretty uncommon. But hopefully not for long, and yes that is a clue.

 

[NVSemin]

We're not focused on the crouch aspect to find similarities to Floyd's style. Perhaps that's why you didn't spot any similarities. Jeffereis' training videos always looked weird to me because of how they sparred back then. Where I first saw it was in held positions:

Upward jab, rear hand guard:

Sideways catch (Floyd Sr. is BIG on this same position, Floyd Jr.'s is modified):

Hook posture (though Jeff kept his chin down better):

I'll post a few more in a separate post so as not to have too many images in one post..

That was quite insightfull. You have good eye

 

[RightHandLead]

does bob foster use the same stance/crouch?

 

[Sinister]

He uses what I refer to as a more true "Philly Shell" being as he was trained by Fetch, who was a key player in the development of Philly fighters (Frazier, Briscoe, and others) who fought that way. But yes, similar.