Keenan Cornelius: "Rickson Gracie...tough purple belt"

[cugnao]

On the contrary, its brought up to point out the underlying question: what makes someone in a field great?

One possibility is greatness is about absolute performance -- who would win in head to head competition. A second possibility is that its about relative performance -- who did best against other people of their time. A third possibility is that its about advancing knowledge of the field -- who made the greatest relative change in knowledge (this is admittedly biased towards early practisioners).

You could argue that Rickson fails on all three -- that he would lose to current champions, that he didn't do exceptionally well against the guys of his time, and that he didn't advance BJJ much. That's different than what I'd heard during the 90's when BJJ first become widely known, but quite possible, back then the Web was just getting going and things like usnet were the main sources of information.

In terms of bringing up Newton, I chose him simply because every high school science student has heard of him -- there's nothing 'smart' about knowing who he is, 95% of humans on the planet over the age of 15 know of him. Einstein and Darwin would probably be the only other scientists who everyone knows, but they're harder to use for this kind of analogy.

I suppose I should have used Kano (the founder of judo) as a better analogy to BJJ. He's still considered one of the greatest judoka ever by judo people, even though his techniques have long since been surpassed and his absolute ability would have him losing badly in competition to modern competitors. If it comes up again I'll go that route. Not that Rickson was on Kano's level as an innovator, just as an example of the principle.

Seriously, I don't know much about Rickson; I was around in the 90's though, and what you heard back then was that he was a major driving force behind the development of pre-modern BJJ. Maybe that was just Gracie propaganda, but it was the common image.

BTW, you undervalue his influence. His physics for instance is central to all modern physics -- everything from statistical mechanics to electromagnetism to QM to relativity and of course classical mechanics (in the form of Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics) rely on part on principles he discovered. Its why just about every professional physicist ranks him along with Einstein as the greatest physicist ever. What you take in Phys 101 is a tiny portion of what his work led to.

Don't forget Mifune the second toughest man in judo,

Good post and I agree with it but I also think Keenan has contributed more to submission grappling than he gets credit for.

Lot of versatility and creativity in these highlights and these are 4 years old.

We always underrate his no gi game which allow him to earn a podium at the ADCC worlds

 

[mattemate]

Relevant.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/rickson-gracie-faq.1062118/

Dusting away all the mysticism crap, there's a reference to Rickson tapping Galvao in training in 2009. Paulo Filho was also saying amazing
things about him around that time. I just don't see world champion purples doing that to those guys even now.

That said, Keenan has influenced my game more than Rickson and I think he's probably better. Sue me.

 

[flikerstance]

Relevant.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/rickson-gracie-faq.1062118/

Dusting away all the mysticism crap, there's a reference to Rickson tapping Galvao in training in 2009. Paulo Filho was also saying amazing
things about him around that time. I just don't see world champion purples doing that to those guys even now.

That said, Keenan has influenced my game more than Rickson and I think he's probably better. Sue me.

exactly the main thing guys from rickson era fail today is guard passing and playing the open guard guys today at good gyms blues have the hip movement guards of average blacks back then

but guys today dont have near the control on top as they use to today your taught to have a more flowing top game i feel the mount is a dead art today ill take someone who grew up in 90s -mid 2000s ideas on top control than a modern day black belt who got it i past 5 years

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The cradle where you are in side but you control the head and legs with arms doesn't?

As far as I know, it doesn’t, you have to release the cradle and secure side control... I might be wrong though

 

[Stoic1]

In sport jiu jitsu Rickson probably played like a good purple today. In real fights he is a black belt and put people in the hospital.



It's really two different worlds. Don't pretend they are interchangeable. However, that being said - world class jiu jitsu people who have actually rolled with Rickson say he was the man. I wonder what world class MMA fighters would say about Keenan?

 

[rmongler]

Dude i like cradles, they are just not score as guard Passes in subgrappling...

Well, i get what you're saying, though i'd call it a statement that's technically correct, yet wrong in spirit.

It's like saying using a legweave is not 'a pass' either, since you need to move out of it if you want to be rewarded points.

(Coincidentally, legweaves and cradles are highly interrelated movements in the context of mma or submission grappling)

 

[cugnao]

In sport jiu jitsu Rickson probably played like a good purple today. In real fights he is a black belt and put people in the hospital.



It's really two different worlds. Don't pretend they are interchangeable. However, that being said - world class jiu jitsu people who have actually rolled with Rickson say he was the man. I wonder what world class MMA fighters would say about Keenan?

Well for RIckson judged as a "purple belt", at 40 years old he managed to tap a 25 years old Saulo Ribeiro in his prime after he won his world champion first title at black belt despite he didn't train for months due to injury:
https://www.bjjee.com/articles/how-...ickson-defeated-a-15yr-younger-saulo-ribeiro/

Then a testimony from Fabio "the general" Gurgel (the co leader of Alliance Team) regarding Rickson gracie, during a visit at the end of the 90s, he tapped nearly all the black belts of Gurgel at that time but Traven who was world champion managed to stall Rickson passing attempts with his spider guard until the next day Rickson figured out a way to smash this guard and tap Traven several times. For a "purple belt" level, he's a freak in BJJ
https://www.bjjee.com/articles/gurgel-traven-describe-training-rickson-humbling/

By the way as Roger Gracie has a similar basic game, can we say he's a "purple belt" for someone who won 10 times for the world champion title and 2 times ADCC champion and submit a modern Bucchecha?

 

[yetanother]

Well for RIckson judged as a "purple belt", at 40 years old he managed to tap a 25 years old Saulo Ribeiro in his prime after he won his world champion first title at black belt despite he didn't train for months due to injury:
https://www.bjjee.com/articles/how-...ickson-defeated-a-15yr-younger-saulo-ribeiro/

Then a testimony from Fabio "the general" Gurgel (the co leader of Alliance Team) regarding Rickson gracie, during a visit at the end of the 90s, he tapped nearly all the black belts of Gurgel at that time but Traven who was world champion managed to stall Rickson passing attempts with his spider guard until the next day Rickson figured out a way to smash this guard and tap Traven several times. For a "purple belt" level, he's a freak in BJJ
https://www.bjjee.com/articles/gurgel-traven-describe-training-rickson-humbling/

Spider guard being some shocking new things kind of illustrates how the level back in the day was below shit.
The Saulo story is from henry akins. It's a super biased source as that man makes a living leaching of the Rickson myth.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Well, i get what you're saying, but i'd call it a statement that's technically correct, but wrong in spirit.

It's like saying using a legweave is not 'a pass' either, since you need to move out of it if you want to be rewarded points.

(Coincidentally, legweaves and cradles are highly interrelated movements in the context of mma or submission grappling)

legweaves are not passes either, you are about to pass, but you need to complete the pass.. Coincidentially, Im with you, cradle is a position that its quite dominant, but as it is, its not scored, that was my whole point. I think we are on the same page though.

 

[cugnao]

Spider guard being some shocking new things kind of illustrates how the level back in the day was below shit.
The Saulo story is from henry akins. It's a super biased source as that man makes a living leaching of the Rickson myth.

As I told previously, BJJ is still evolving and each generation will bring his own contribution at any aspect of BJJ (sport, MMA, self defense)

 

[rmongler]

legweaves are not passes either, you are about to pass, but you need to complete the pass.. Coincidentially, Im with you, cradle is a position that its quite dominant, but as it is, its not scored, that was my whole point. I think we are on the same page though.

Yes; though i think you'll have to forgive people if they see a guy getting passes by using things like a legweave or cradle or so on, and call it him doing a 'legweave pass', rather than a 'moving-out-of-legweave-pass'.

 

[yetanother]

Roger Gracie has a similar basic game, can we say he's a "purple belt" for someone who won 10 times for the world champion title and 2 times ADCC champion and submit a modern Bucchecha?

No that's pure bullshit. Roger does a lot of stuff in a completely opposite then traditionally taught and submitted Buchecha after using a knee inside closed guard (with is as super rare and tricky position as it requires long legs and careful positioning not to get your balls squashed).

 

[ovenmok]

Haha fuck off Keenan you Megan Rapinoe looking motherfucker

Jiu-jitsu at its core is about self-defense, something you'd know nothing about because you've spent your whole life "perfecting" a bunch of fancy techniques that would never work against a competent martial artist in a real fight.

By the metric of real jiu-jitsu (self-defense application), you're not even a three stripe blue.

 

[mattemate]

The Saulo story is from henry akins. It's a super biased source as that man makes a living leaching of the Rickson myth.

oh dang I remember hearing that and was looking for that article but couldn't find it. I thought saulo said it himself but it makes sense that Henry would push that story.

No that's pure bullshit. Roger does a lot of stuff in a completely opposite then traditionally taught and submitted Buchecha after using a knee inside closed guard (with is as super rare and tricky position as it requires long legs and careful positioning not to get your balls squashed).

I actually started using that position because Roger uses it and I have a similar build. Not quite as heavy as Roger but I'm 6-4. it's actually a really good knee slide counter and once you get comfortable in the position it provides a pretty easy way to get to the back.

 

[Thaijitsu612]

In sport jiu jitsu Rickson probably played like a good purple today. In real fights he is a black belt and put people in the hospital.

Sure, but by today's standards he never fought a great fighter. He would get dominated more in modern mma than modern bjj.

 

[Habs fan]

Robert Drysdale had a interesting take on the subject. He said that Rickson could not win in the purple belt division today and that wasn't anything bad about Rickson but it a compliment to the sport today and how it has evolved. He also stated that if he took a time machine into the future in about 10 years in his prime; purple belts would beat him. I guess him and Josh where not trying to disrespect Rickson but to point out how much the sport has grown and evolved. Josh Hinger points out if you look at any sport the same thing is happening.

 

[yetanother]

Robert Drysdale had a interesting take on the subject. He said that Rickson could not win in the purple belt division today and that wasn't anything bad about Rickson but it a compliment to the sport today and how it has evolved. He also stated that if he took a time machine into the future in about 10 years in his prime; purple belts would beat him. I guess him and Josh where not trying to disrespect Rickson but to point out how much the sport has grown and evolved. Josh Hinger points out if you look at any sport the same thing is happening.

That's disrespectful to the BJJ as self defense TMA. The level of sports go up, martial arts are created by perfect masters (who are slaying bears with punches etc.) and they get diluted by the passage of time.

 

[winterbike]

Haha fuck off Keenan you Megan Rapinoe looking motherfucker

Jiu-jitsu at its core is about self-defense, something you'd know nothing about because you've spent your whole life "perfecting" a bunch of fancy techniques that would never work against a competent martial artist in a real fight.

By the metric of real jiu-jitsu (self-defense application), you're not even a three stripe blue.

 

[yetanother]

Haha fuck off Keenan you Megan Rapinoe looking motherfucker

Jiu-jitsu at its core is about self-defense, something you'd know nothing about because you've spent your whole life "perfecting" a bunch of fancy techniques that would never work against a competent martial artist in a real fight.

By the metric of real jiu-jitsu (self-defense application), you're not even a three stripe blue.

Never met anyone preaching about self-defense in real life who wasn't a weak ass bitch.

 

[Habs fan]

That's disrespectful to the BJJ as self defense TMA. The level of sports go up, martial arts are created by perfect masters (who are slaying bears with punches etc.) and they get diluted by the passage of time.

But that is Robert's point. Your saying that it was created by perfect masters as if the art cannot go further then these people. Robert points out that it is arrogant to think the progression of any sport/self defence art stops at any one individual.