Karelin vs Japanese Pro-Wrestler!

[Kforcer]

Paying Yoshida more than Sak is exactly the type of shit they would do LMAO. I remember when I was living there and quit a job, the woman on the other end of the phone crying and begging me to "have courage." LMAO. Showing up to do some shit to enrich people who don't care about you isn't courage.

I would LOVE to hear a really in depth interview with Sak. I'm facebook friends with the old codger and have interacted with him a few times, and I speak Japanese, but not well enough to pull that off. Damn, this conversation has me thinking lol.

Kanehara and a few other former teammates of his are on Facebook and pretty receptive. Kanehara told me some stuff about the UWF Snake Pit, for example. He said he felt like Anjoh was the guy who he considered to be the coach, for example. As far as Yoshida, him and Ogata were definitely paid over a million dollars each, but I can't recall the precise purse. I think one of them made 1.5 million, going off memory...?

 

[mattemate]

Kanehara and a few other former teammates of his are on Facebook and pretty receptive. Kanehara told me some stuff about the UWF Snake Pit, for example. He said he felt like Anjoh was the guy who he considered to be the coach, for example. As far as Yoshida, him and Ogata were definitely paid over a million dollars each, but I can't recall the precise purse. I think one of them made 1.5 million, going off memory...?

The craziest shit was the matchmaking. The idea that they would keep putting him against juiced up monsters like Arona, Manhoef, Silva who CLEARLY had his number, just sending him time and again into fights they not only knew he would probably lose, but be hurt badly in the process, was probably worse than any of the money they stole from him. It's the same fucking mentality that made the Japanese such absurd adversaries in the WW2, being willing to die to the last man. It's supposedly about honor, but the reality is you'll just be an outcast if you don't fulfill your duty. Batshit crazy-- it's actually that attitude that got them nuked twice. Insanity.

 

[Kforcer]

The craziest shit was the matchmaking. The idea that they would keep putting him against juiced up monsters like Arona, Manhoef, Silva who CLEARLY had his number, just sending him time and again into fights they not only knew he would probably lose, but be hurt badly in the process, was probably worse than any of the money they stole from him. It's the same fucking mentality that made the Japanese such absurd adversaries in the WW2, being willing to die to the last man. It's supposedly about honor, but the reality is you'll just be an outcast if you don't fulfill your duty. Batshit crazy-- it's actually that attitude that got them nuked twice. Insanity.

I really understand Sakuraba's frustration with being frozen out of the 183-pound picture, because yeah, the matchmaking was absurd, but then to actually have the nerve to crown a champion at his own weight and not even allow him a crack at it, that is just insulting. Looking at his biography, it is interesting as well, because I think people had long thought that Sakuraba had wanted those fights with bigger guys, when the truth is actually the opposite, apparently. He said something like, "The more they matched me with bigger guys, the more pissed off I got and the more determined I became to win." Something like that.

I will say though, in Pride's defense, Manhoef took place in DREAM, not Pride. I actually think a slightly younger Saku would've handled Manhoef too; I mean, Akiyama beat Manhoef with Sakuraba's favorite move, the rolling Kimura/DWL. Manhoef was always vulnerable to being taken down and submitted, but Sakuraba was just past the point of pulling it off when they met up, I guess.

But yeah, much as I am not a fan of Dana White, he was 100% right about Sakuraba and the way Pride treated him. Honestly, I think that getting traded to the UFC as Dana wanted would have probably extended his career. I mean, he'd probably have been fighting at 170, 185 at the absolute heaviest.

BTW--that mentality you're referencing; how much of that does the Japanese public itself buy into it, you think? I.E., how much of it is not just the matchmakers making absurd demands of Saku, but also the public wanting to see someone display that sort of attitude of taking impossible, almost suicidal tasks?

 

[mattemate]

BTW--that mentality you're referencing; how much of that does the Japanese public itself buy into it, you think? I.E., how much of it is not just the matchmakers making absurd demands of Saku, but also the public wanting to see someone display that sort of attitude of taking impossible, almost suicidal tasks?

It's their culture. It's well beyond just being a fighter. There's a word they made up, karoshi, which means death by overwork. It's hard to pinpoint exactly where it came from. There's the Confucian influence, which is not taught so overtly but taken from the influence of Chinese culture, and that emphasizes group before self. The Buddhist aspect, especially Zen, which is more hardnosed and tough minded than most other forms of Buddhism. Then combine that with Japan's unique culture-- largely due to being an island nation, it developed differently and was more isolated, so nationalism is a big thing. THEN the industrial revolution and WW2 get mixed in, you have quite the combination. The federal government pushed a nationalist identity HARD to help catch up with the rest of the industrialized world, you then get into how whacky the national religion that believed in the sun goddess Amaterasu, you have a perfect situation for that type of thing to occur. They literally told everyone that everybody in the entire country is a direct descendant of the sun goddess, that they can't be defeated, even to the point that Japanese is a super difficult and complicated language that non Japanese can never really learn (it's not lol) and they BELIEVED it to the extend that they were communicating over unencrypted radio signals in WW2, just giving away plans and positions. VERY arrogant, very racist, very closed minded. So that type of display is seen as really brave, the person that does it will receive accolades, and it will be held over others' heads as a point of shame for not being so selfless as a guy like Tamura that gets crushed by Bob Sapp in five seconds.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Sakuraba always demanded his opponents in the appropriate weight range.

The first thing he said in the aftermath of UFC HW tourney where he fought the same Brazilian twice was he hopes they won't match him against someone of silvera's size in the future.

In 1999, Vitor was forced to cut kilos of weight in the final hours of prep for PRIDE 5 due to sakuraba's irrationally strong assusation over the weight limit. (Vitor didn't make 200lb.) Even after the fight, sakuraba was very angry and he kept denouncing Carson Gracie Sr. who he believed was responsible for Vitor's weight. "I introduced my wife to that old man and showed respect when we met last year and how could he have done this to me?"

In interview, he said he thinks he's the best MMA fighter in the world under 200 lb. "I won't fight Goodrich or Kerr because there would be no realistic scinario where I can see myself winning. I'd probably.....accept any weight if I'm fighting wrestlers from ALL JAPAN PROWRESTLING. "

In 2000-2001, the fight between him and Tito Ortiz was rumored and anticipated by fans who didn't have great taste. Tito travelled to Japan to attend PRIDE to show his intention to depart Las Vegas to make that happen. He shook hands with Sakuraba who had previously expressed no interest towards the fight because of "size".

 

[Deleted member 449757]

It's their culture. It's well beyond just being a fighter. There's a word they made up, karoshi, which means death by overwork. It's hard to pinpoint exactly where it came from. There's the Confucian influence, which is not taught so overtly but taken from the influence of Chinese culture, and that emphasizes group before self. The Buddhist aspect, especially Zen, which is more hardnosed and tough minded than most other forms of Buddhism. Then combine that with Japan's unique culture-- largely due to being an island nation, it developed differently and was more isolated, so nationalism is a big thing. THEN the industrial revolution and WW2 get mixed in, you have quite the combination. The federal government pushed a nationalist identity HARD to help catch up with the rest of the industrialized world, you then get into how whacky the national religion that believed in the sun goddess Amaterasu, you have a perfect situation for that type of thing to occur. They literally told everyone that everybody in the entire country is a direct descendant of the sun goddess, that they can't be defeated, even to the point that Japanese is a super difficult and complicated language that non Japanese can never really learn (it's not lol) and they BELIEVED it to the extend that they were communicating over unencrypted radio signals in WW2, just giving away plans and positions. VERY arrogant, very racist, very closed minded. So that type of display is seen as really brave, the person that does it will receive accolades, and it will be held over others' heads as a point of shame for not being so selfless as a guy like Tamura that gets crushed by Bob Sapp in five seconds.

I see this weird combination of ultranationalism with confucian expectation of obedience from the PRC too. When my girlfriend grew up, her grandmother would always beat and berate her for being a "rightist" if she read foreign novels. When she was about to move away to go to university, her grandmother would threaten to kill herself if she dared to leave her.

 

[mattemate]

I see this weird combination of ultranationalism with confucian expectation of obedience from the PRC too. When my girlfriend grew up, her grandmother would always beat and berate her for being a "rightist" if she read foreign novels. When she was about to move away to go to university, her grandmother would threaten to kill herself if she dared to leave her.

That's crazy! The rightist nonsense sounds like it's straight out of the Cultural Revolution.
Ironically, her grandmother and others like her are just going to isolate themselves more. Threatening suicide if she leaves, par for the course but still, holy shit! There's a whole weird thing, where your life always belongs to the group, you don't belong to yourself, you're not allowed to live for yourself. It's wild. Everything is the property of the party or the nation or whatever.

I got married to a Japanese chick when I was young. Didn't last long. She was lazy, demanding, entitled, and still pulled that shit. COMPLETELY different person in public vs. private, like two completely separate people. When I finally left-- and I mean walking down the road leaving our house for the last time, never to look back-- she called me on the phone threatening suicide. I told her to fucking do it and called her brother to let him know what she had said. He just laughed.

Like bitch, I'm from Texas, I'm not conforming to your bullshit. You can conform to mine, but you guys have shown an inability to handle a little responsibility, so frankly, I consider that a failed culture. Unfortunate, because they get a lot right, but the shit they get wrong really buttfucked them.

 

[Deleted member 449757]

That's crazy! The rightist nonsense sounds like it's straight out of the Cultural Revolution.
Ironically, her grandmother and others like her are just going to isolate themselves more. Threatening suicide if she leaves, par for the course but still, holy shit! There's a whole weird thing, where your life always belongs to the group, you don't belong to yourself, you're not allowed to live for yourself. It's wild. Everything is the property of the party or the nation or whatever.

True, it's super creepy. This grotesque authority hierarchy is also layered in this strange gradual fashion. For instance, when she was a child, she would cry for hours after their janitor killed (actually even flayed) her cat because of the meowing. The reaction of her grandmother was giving her a beating and apologizing profusely to the janitor for the inconvenience. And this didn't happen in bumfuck Yunnan province or some other rural middle of nowhere but in Tianjin. Seems to be the same mentality as in Japan, which is probably the reason Karl Gotch spoke mostly ill of the japanese people during a time when they would actually credit him a lot. He figured many were just trying to capitalize on his name rather than genuinely respect him.

I got married to a Japanese chick when I was young. Didn't last long. She was lazy, demanding, entitled, and still pulled that shit. COMPLETELY different person in public vs. private, like two completely separate people. When I finally left-- and I mean walking down the road leaving our house for the last time, never to look back-- she called me on the phone threatening suicide. I told her to fucking do it and called her brother to let him know what she had said. He just laughed.

Like bitch, I'm from Texas, I'm not conforming to your bullshit. You can conform to mine, but you guys have shown an inability to handle a little responsibility, so frankly, I consider that a failed culture. Unfortunate, because they get a lot right, but the shit they get wrong really buttfucked them.

A lot of those imperious attitudes low-key show up even when you're a guest if you are sensitized enough to notice. My best friend is a chinese immigrant and she lives with her family, and every time i come to visit, her mom would constantly soft-coerce us into activities. A few months ago, i had a videocall with her at night and suddenly her mom would pop up behind her and tell me "I thought you were asleep already! Promise me to go to bed soon!". Yeah, sure! You definitely woke up in the middle of the night and your first thought was that this random friend of your daughter a hundred miles away is probably asleep already. And after you find out he is not, you have to make him promise to go to bed soon, because it's not like he is a grown-ass man, right? Those things come off as charming if you don't know the flipside of the mentality. I recently re-read the Water Margin and there is a character named Song Jiang, who got married to a woman he doesn't love (and who doesn't love him) at her mothers insistance. The way the mother talks and behaves reminds me so much of my friends mom that i could not help but chuckle through the whole chapter, so this is definitely not some individual character trait but a cultural thing if you can even find it identically in classic literature.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

The craziest shit was the matchmaking. The idea that they would keep putting him against juiced up monsters like Arona, Manhoef, Silva who CLEARLY had his number, just sending him time and again into fights they not only knew he would probably lose, but be hurt badly in the process, was probably worse than any of the money they stole from him. It's the same fucking mentality that made the Japanese such absurd adversaries in the WW2, being willing to die to the last man.

Not sure about trilogy with Silva, but according to sakuraba himself, Arona was not a strong man who didn't pose a physical threat unlike other top fighters did. Manhoef was absolutely beatable if he was humble enough to stick to his bread and butter, catch wrestling a la UWFi. I'd say sakuraba's winning chance was over 85% before the brain damage sustained from his first fight in heroes robbed him of instinctive edge.

Do Japanese MMA promoters want their domestic fighters to showcase everlasting will and courage in a "fight to the death" battle that's actually breaking them? Yes, perhaps and so does Zuffa. MMA is an underground business that shows illegal activities to collect money from the blue collar audience at fighters' sacrifice, sharing the social status with prostitution and drug trafficking. 16 years ago, potheads in California legalized it and now it's everyone's pastime. I wouldn't be surprised if Hell's Angels became a Federal agency.

from the PRC too. When my girlfriend grew up, her grandmother would always beat and berate her for being a "rightist" if she read foreign novels.

Chinese and Koreans are known for their oppression of freedom for ages. They PG-100 everything from music, literature, film, fashion, to everyday conversation. South Korea may not be always associated with such enforcement that is common in her northern communist neighbors, but they used to be fined or arrested for publicly playing western pop music and Japanese films up until 1990s. (How in the hell have they become world's largest wasteland for junk culture!) It's their conventional tendency rooted in racially distinguished characteristics. And in China, reading fiction whether they are foreign or not is generally discouraged as it is considered as unproductive deed. Whereas Japan is the only non-euro country where regular working class people discuss Russian novels and french films on the commuter train.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

If you have never pushed yourself to the life/death border which I even crossed a few times, you know nothing about budo.

This is one of the well known masahiko kimura quotes from his autobiography. Not his original philosophy. The same was said by a number of samurai authors from the medieval era. Bushido can be sought by an individual only after he welcomes and accepts death with absolute positiveness to the core of his life. True value of one's present life is measured by how well he's prepared for the moment of dying (search for better translations)...Those fundamental ideas of Bushido can be partly attributed to the ancient Chinamans' thoughts but are opposed to what Confucius taught or what chinamans believe today.

You can find a very similar concept in old testament (especially Psalms) that tragically influenced JFK when he told the secret service agents to stay away from his limo, giving Oswald the perfect opportunity. It was a suicidal idea and the security crew at the scene questioned his sanity. A few people might've known what motivated him to spin his fate- deliberately risk his life to test faith in God and to achieve higher nobility in himself.